forums.marpirc.net

I commend this "painfully" difficult play but really do you think this way is fun to play? playing over and over again to get a trick to work? it is more points yes but it is more fun? If this trick can be done in the arcades it's certainly in the spirit of marp and legal (that is if you can do it with out opening the machine cabinet), i.e from rules page:

MARP's goal is to emulate the experience of "watching a virtual master play an arcade game", true to the arcade experience, as closely as possible.

If it's really fun that's a different story to be debated.

LN2 wrote:
Not sure what you mean by "crash and crash". If your "crash" actually means "crush"ing blocks that is part of the game design. Warping through walls to get in weird spots isn't part of the game design. It's why for the bumper leeching that was allowed as long as you finish the game cuz the bumpers are certainly part of the game.

This I can not still agree with...The bumbers are meant to bounce a ball -not to give huge points, worth more than progressing in the maze.

Huge bumberpoints are a side effect of a.....ummmm.....scoring bug

Defcon= 5

Oakster wrote: This was an inp with no skill what so ever! Anyone can learn to do that, not many can play the game with the beuty and finess as Rick and QRS gives us!

It is just difference of "basis planning."
if want to show beautiful maze clear, must use iron ball.
to select blue ball is always loser.

It is no wonder my play seemed poor.
because I play this game for 3 days. but that play was my first trial of stage 3,4,5,6,7,8,9 and 10 for these 7 years.


Defcon=1
And you did a big fault.
"This was inp with no skill."
very fine. if you really think so, prove it does not require any skill
by yourself.I already account for all informations for you.
(history repeats. I hate to talk so many...

Defcon=6

Chad wrote:I commend this "painfully" difficult play but really do you think this way is fun to play? playing over and over again to get a trick to work? it is more points yes but it is more fun?

At least I really satisfied when finish this painful game.
and very glad when penetrate into sweet spot.
(can you understand how much I was GLAD??)
Because of hundreads of resets.
Each men's goal is not same I think.

Everything I can not accept is,
to speak "ILL OF OTHER" without know "one's effort and difficulty".

Finish is duty of here. so I obey this rule.
if just show this trick, I success 6-7 times at last night.


DEFCON=2
BLAH......... complain is easy. can you enjoy?
congratulations.

mu...I certain it is much easier than painful "start and reset"

I bet the original programmers of pacman never expected players to use patterns to play the game. I propose that anyone that plays cheaply and exploits the patterns the ghosts follow should have his/her inp disqualified from marp. Furthermore, I am sure that the programmers of MS. Pac-man didn't want players to be able to sit in 'hiding' spots and group ghosts to make the game easier. It is an exploit. A skilled player should be able to clear levels on the fly in Pac-Man/Ms Pac-Man, not use cheap patterns or exploits. I guess the same could be said of Nibbler as well.....

Now before anyone has a heart attack, or starts a poll to have me banned from marp, realize that I am being sarcastic. I personally think players should be given a lot of freedom in the way they decide to play a game. I have seen quite a few inps as a confirmer. I have also seen many techniques far more outrageous than anything Hisa did on Outrun and Cameltry. Personally, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the way Hisa is playing. His cameltry inp is very impressive. It sure isn't easy to do what he did and trying to beat his score will take some time as his techniques are quite risky to pull off. I do draw the line at exploits that give away 255 men (Sinistar) or makes the enemies totally defenseless (Galaga), but I guess my tolerance for what I think is acceptable for a player to do is quite high.

Making a universal rule about leeching and proper play at marp will never work. There are too many games and too many views on what is proper play. If you don't like a certain player's techniques one could always ask for a vote on the legality of such a technique. Personally, unless the technique is totally outrageous, I just play the game the way I want to and don't worry about what other players do. I am not out to get the highest scores or leech my way to glory. If someone else wants to do that, more power to them. That is not why I play games. To mis-quote my hero Jesse 'THE BODY' Ventura: I HAVEN'T GOT TIME TO LEECH.

I will admit that I like to watch players maximize scores and find it impressive when they take huge risks to score a few more points. I am also glad when I see neat techniques in inps.

Finally, for LN2

Personally I have confirmed many of your scores and like the way you play. The first paragraph is meant to be completely sarcastic. I always wondered how people could play Nibbler forever, and thanks to you, I now know. I think if you watch Hisa's inps you will see an incredibly high standard of play. If you consider his techniques on Outrun and Cameltry dubious, I suggest watching any inp where he plays a shooter type game. He is quite skilled.

The TJT wrote:This I can not still agree with...The bumbers are meant to bounce a ball -not to give huge points, worth more than progressing in the maze.

Huge bumberpoints are a side effect of a.....ummmm.....scoring bug

Yes TJT but there are you only talking about bad game design especially in that 1 expert world where you have 2 bumpers in a small area so you can leech. It's not really possibly to say you can't do that. the rule MARP has that you can do that but as long as you complete the course is a decent compromise.

Remember this thread is about doing that kind of trick...not leeching. It just turns out this trick results in massive potential leeching. Leeching is separate issue and already been covered by a poll and special rule for Cameltry. If that trick didn't result in getting a higher score than you would get playing the game normally then no one would use the trick in trying to get high scores. If he had found a spot in the actual course that doesn't require any trick element to it and got 2 million it would be totally fine.

Chad wrote:
If this trick can be done in the arcades it's certainly in the spirit of marp and legal (that is if you can do it with out opening the machine cabinet), i.e from rules page:
MARP's goal is to emulate the experience of "watching a virtual master play an arcade game", true to the arcade experience, as closely as possible.

Chad, if you are taking that position then you are really saying all those special rules for various games MARP already has in place shouldn't be there cuz almost all are tricks you actually can do in the arcade game. You would have to allow the 999,990 Alpine Ski trick or the 255 extra men on first Mr. Do stage trick etc. MARP added special rules to not allow those cuz otherwise it makes scores for those games pointless to even have. Those tricks are also exploiting bugs in the games. Adding the special rule allows high scores for those games to still be acquired and based on skill.

Watching a master of the game and true to the arcade experience are the key words there. I read that as true to the spirit of the game. This means not exploiting bugs in the game code. Even arcade competitions for games would have special rules for games so all are playing it the same way. Twin Galaxies has special settings and rules for all games in it's records so all scores submitted for the game are playing the same game. If they do tricks that exploit bugs in the game that really isn't playing the game then...it's just showing the bug. Other record sites don't really have any requirements and work off the premise of whatever you can make the game do to get a high score...do it. That's great for them but seems to me to be a stance MARP for quite a long time now doesn't want.

According to Novice above though it sounds like you can't do this trick on the original arcade machine with original controller setup in factory mode. It does require opening the cabinet to put in a different type of controller or at least going into service mode to change the sensitivity of the controller so it's 20 times more than it is at factory settings.

Then there is the separate issue in the pure arcade sense you wouldn't be able to change the sensitivity(whatever it was set to) once your game was started. If you have it set at a extremely high value to do that trick then you would be stuck with it like that the rest of the game.

Novice said that while the ball was in that small spot off the bumper he changed the paddle sensitivity from 255 to 15. That is not possible with the arcade game. It would require opening the cabinet to hit a dip switch to get into service mode at the least....or even retuning the controller itself...something you can do in mame but not in an actual arcade machine...so changing sensitivity during a game definitely shouldn't be allowed along the same lines pausing isn't allowed. You can't pause that arcade machine without opening it up. That's something that maybe should be added to alphamame(???). Once a recorded game is started you can't access the config area at all(normally accessed by hitting TAB).

I'm not looking to DQ his score for that reason though. He would just make a new one keeping the same sensitivity to get around that. I am not out to get him at all. I am judging what allowing this trick to be done does to the game Cameltry. The trick itself is as major as ones like Alpine Ski and Mr. Do so shouldn't be allowed.

It's not in the spirit of the game.

I would just like to add something for everyone here to think about:

First of all this is not a real arcade (even if we are trying our best to make it look like it) This is not Gamest, TG, HOM or any other place on the net.

This is MARP! And MARP IS MARP! (marp marp!!)

We try to make things as close to the real arcade feeling as possible, but sometimes we need to set rules against/for things that is/is not allowed on other places.
Why? cause some games might be to easy and therefore a 5 men rules is set.. to stop marathon recordings. Why? cause it might make the games more interesting. (just an example)

TG sets their own rules for games to make them harder, not marathonable etc. MARP is often doing the same. But more on a public vote. Things happend etc, someone brings up somethings to discuss, a poll is made, and people accept the outcome.
Many players are familiar with the TG site, and they play using their settings here on MARP too. (Even if default is enough)
That is about the only thing that links TG and MARP together in my opinion. Maybe Mark Longridge too

What this really is about is that someone thinks "hmm this is not a good thing to do" or "Should this really be allowed?" Well no rules for it yet (well over 3500 games..to set rules on), so let´s see what other people says about it. We have a discussion, and maybe a poll if people thinks it is an option, we vote and things are settled! Or at least decided.

I like that option, cause it brings forward an interest and opinion from many guys here.

It is very hard to draw a line and say "That is not allowed, but this is!" so we try to discuss, and make everyone happy

In the end there is not a single person that decides all of this. It is the public, and that´s the good thing. Keep your opinions coming!!

Regards

zlk wrote:Personally, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the way Hisa is playing. His cameltry inp is very impressive.

Ok, now you say it's impressive and others have said watch QRS's or my inps(need a mac to watch mine) to see skilled play. If you haven't viewed either of them watch those before saying Novice's inp is impressive. There is nothing really impressive leeching 2 million points from a spot while at that time he actually is in the config area lowering his sensitivity so he will be able to play out the rest of the game.

He could have been sitting back sipping on a drink or twiddling his thumbs while he acquired those 2 million points off that spot for that 1 minute. That's skill?

Skill has little to do with what he did. Luck to get in that spot just right and then get the lottery +20 seconds is what that inp was about. Novice said himself it required a lot of luck.

It sure isn't easy to do what he did and trying to beat his score will take some time as his techniques are quite risky to pull off.

In what way is it risky? It's on the 2nd world of the course. If he doesn't get the ball in that spot within 10-15 seconds he just kills that run and tries again and again and again..400+ times until he got lucky enough where he pulled it off and then got the +20 seconds from the lottery. It's "painful" as Novice said cuz you waste tons of attempts over many many hours over an entire weekend to just get a few great runs in using the trick. It would be risky in a tournament setting if you only get 3 attempts to set a score including completing the course for the game.

I do draw the line at exploits that give away 255 men (Sinistar) or makes the enemies totally defenseless (Galaga), but I guess my tolerance for what I think is acceptable for a player to do is quite high.

Yet an exploit that makes the scoring of the rest of the entire game essentially mean nothing is ok? Do you think that trick in Alpine Ski to get 999,990 points on the first couple levels is ok? That is a score that is unobtainable except by using that trick. It's simply a bug in the game code. Cameltry is limited game and you can't get 2+ million with even the best skills in the world unless you use that trick...and then you are just testing luck/skill at doing that trick...and that trick alone..not all the other aspects of the game you actually should be skilled at to score high. The trick is clearly a bug in the code....similar to those in Galaga or Sinistar you gave as examples.

Making a universal rule about leeching and proper play at marp will never work. There are too many games and too many views on what is proper play.

Yeah, I'm afraid you are right. However, I was thinking of some general blanket rule of not exploiting obvious bugs in games so when something like this happens for other games(and a little voice tells me Novice has many more tricks coming for other games to make MARP life miserable) there is a general statement an editor or confirmer can point to saying based on this it isn't allowed. That means you would need to vote on a special rule to allow that trick for that particular game...instead of by default allowing any trick and then having all these votes to disallow tricks. It shifts the burden in the other direction which overall I think would be nice.

IMHO any true gamer understands the true spirit of games though so wouldn't use tricks exploiting flaws or bugs in the game code to allow them to score or do things you normally wouldn't be able to do.

I will admit that I like to watch players maximize scores and find it impressive when they take huge risks to score a few more points. I am also glad when I see neat techniques in inps.

No risk in his inp at all. It's really no different than most of the inps on the tricks page that have all been made illegal. If you enjoy watching those that's great. It can be cool to see what tricks can be done in some games. They shouldn't be high scores though. Those can all be on rhe tricks and easter eggs page.

I always wondered how people could play Nibbler forever, and thanks to you, I now know. I think if you watch Hisa's inps you will see an incredibly high standard of play. If you consider his techniques on Outrun and Cameltry dubious, I suggest watching any inp where he plays a shooter type game. He is quite skilled.

Thx for the Nibbler comment. Yes, I assumed Novice was a very skilled gamer to have so many high scores at MARP.

However on the other hand I ask myself why would a highly skilled gamer resort to using tricks to obtain a high score for a game when he can do it using his gaming skills and not using the trick? He did this with Outrun and now with Cameltry...so are these the first games he has exploited bugs in? A person skilled at games generally are the ones that are sticklers for the rules and playing the game exactly as it was intended. It's generally the lesser skilled players that tend to try and bend the rules or create new ones to their advantage. Sorry, but that is the stereotype.

To Ln2 ,

I have seen QRS's inps. I have seen many other cameltry inps. I still assert that Hisa's inp is impressive. The moves he does are risky because if you fail, you will need to spend time playing the game again. Does one really want to spend all that time to get that high of a score? Also, if you want to beat that score, not only will you have to use the same techniques, which could take quite a while to do successfully, but also have a decent run through the rest of the game.

There are many inps where players intentionally put themselves in situations where they aren't going to finish the game. Because of how they play, they will score much higher than the people who do finish the game. Should one go for a higher score or try to finish the game? I think both kinds of inps have a place at marp and find both types interesting to watch. I think it is up to the players to decide how they want to play. People can always vote if a technique particularly annoys them.

I think Hisa's inp is fine. If a player is much better than Hisa on cameltry, all they have to do is use the same techniques and then score more on the rest of the boards. A player has to ask: Do I want to play that way? Do I want to spend the time to perfect the techniques and risk messing up? That is up to the gamer to decide.

Finally, your alpine ski analogy is flawed. When gamers roll the score over forwards, they still keep the points that they accumulated from before. The scoreboard may say ZERO, when in fact you have 10 million points. When you roll the score over backwards, you will have a negative score when you finish despite what the scoreboard says.

The TJT wrote:Huge bumberpoints are a side effect of a.....ummmm.....scoring bug

Not a bug, just real poor planning on the part of the game's design and programming teams. I could mention a number of Capcom fighters that have stupid-ass scoring systems. (eg: it's possible to max out Pocket Fighter in one round)

zlk wrote:The moves he does are risky because if you fail, you will need to spend time playing the game again. Does one really want to spend all that time to get that high of a score?

Are you saying QRS and I didn't take a lot of time and many failed attempts to beat each other's scores this past week? We both elevated our skills and scores for this game tons last week through the competition. To get those scores you need to crush blocks just so right...otherwise you won't be able to reach the score...plus even after crushing the block just right you still need to have skill to get through all the other worlds as quickly as possible and picking up some more block points here and there....at least for the special and beginner and training courses. They are near perfect scores without resorting to using tricks.

Hisa's playing technique for the game makes all of that moot. Let's just warp through the walls. Screw the fact the game actually is designed for you to stay in between them. Let me tweak my controller and make it so so sensitive the game gets info not expected so warps.

I don't think it took him much time to learn how to warp into that bumper area at all. It's combining that with getting the lottery and being able to complete the world that made it "painful" for him.

Also, if you want to beat that score, not only will you have to use the same techniques, which could take quite a while to do successfully, but also have a decent run through the rest of the game.

Yes it would require using the same technique, but I don't think it would require much skill to beat 2.2 million using that technique once you have figured out how to control the warp some....which shouldn't take anywhere near as long as it does to learn how to very precisely move through the worlds.

I think it is up to the players to decide how they want to play.

That's essentially saying here is a game..do whatever you want to get the highest score possible. No rules. That reminds me of Mach 3 where you could get higher scores by bumping the side of the cabinet at just the right time and it would make the laser disc skip/loop back to an earlier area so you get to play that area over and over and over setting whatever score you wanted.

Other scoreboards and sites have taken that approach and that's fine for them. That generally isn't what MARP has done though. Otherwise why would it have so many special rules for various games? It has all those rules for game fairness so all are playing by the same rules. For any scoreboard all scores for a game need to follow the same playing rules for the game. In general that should be playing the game as it was designed and intended by the programmer...not exploiting bugs in the code. If the bugs were fixed then the skill at doing that means absolutely nothing. Yet those that played it without the trick still could accomplish our scores.

With your logic anything goes that the game playing in mame allows.

I think Hisa's inp is fine. If a player is much better than Hisa on cameltry, all they have to do is use the same techniques and then score more on the rest of the boards. A player has to ask: Do I want to play that way? Do I want to spend the time to perfect the techniques and risk messing up? That is up to the gamer to decide.

QRS and I had already set what are at least a few scores that are close to perfect playing the game as designed and intended. If someone wants to use a trick to show others etc. fine. I have no problem with that...but have it on display on the tricks and easter eggs page for all to download and watch...not as a high score. It ruins the contest for that game. That 1 person has decided to change the rules for playing that game which all others must follow if they are to have any chance of beating that score.

MARP sets the rules here....not an individual player.

Finally, your alpine ski analogy is flawed.

In the manner you describe it yes....however, I was looking at it where it's a bug in the code that you can exploit and get a very high score to be shown without needing any skill.

I do not mean to imply that you or QRS didn't spend a great deal of time to get the scores you do on cameltry. I am merely pointing out that if you want to beat Hisa's score, you will probably need to spend a lot more time trying. Who knows for sure.... QRS is a prodigy and oozes skill. Maybe he hardly ever plays cameltry Maybe you can beat Hisa's score after a few attempts. I would find it enjoyable to see people push the scores as far as they could be possibly taken. The questions still remain: Does one want to put in the time to do the technique and then put in a good run? Does one want to play that way? Looks like we are in for another vote....

It is a very dangerous thing to require people to play the way the programmers of the game intended. First of all it is impossible to know what the programmers intentions were unless you ask them directly. Do we want to ban some of the amazing shortcuts on marble madness? One of them is difficult and the other is nearly impossible. Did the programmer want them to be there? Did the programmers of pacman intend for players to use a 9th key pattern until the kill screen? Did the burgertime programmers want players to group all the enemies on all the boards? I could bring up countless examples of games where the modern style of play probably had little to do with what the programmers envisioned when they made the game.

It looks like I take a more liberal view of what should be allowed at MARP and you take a more stringent "TG-Style" view. Variety is the spice of life

The mach3 trick you mentioned is interesting. Someone at the TG arcade in Iowa once told me that if you smacked xevious hard enough it would sometimes change the score to 9,999,990. I never got the xevious trick to work for fear of getting banned from the arcade, not that I tried too hard or too frequently.

zlk wrote:I would find it enjoyable to see people push the scores as far as they could be possibly taken. The questions still remain: Does one want to put in the time to do the technique and then put in a good run?

QRS and I did that this past week. I really don't want to go through it all over again using a trick and playing the game entirely differently than before. Also, any runs using the trick wouldn't be as good as my "true" runs playing the game as it was meant to be played. I wouldn't be doing any of the block crushing etc. but just warping all over the place and sitting betweena wall and a bumper like Novice did with that 1 but in many different worlds within the course...big deal. QRS and I have excellent runs at MARP I would put against just about any in the world as far as playing the game without the trick. Also, Novice states the top score using this technique you can actually max the game out at 9,999,990 for expert and special. i can see doing that myself. Oh yeah, let's get a bunch of us to do the trick so we all tie at 9,999,990. then we will know who the most skilled are for sure...NOT.

It takes a very fun game and makes a joke out of it.

It is a very dangerous thing to require people to play the way the programmers of the game intended. First of all it is impossible to know what the programmers intentions were unless you ask them directly.

Agree with this for certain cases but I think for Outrun and now Cameltry both of these are very clearly tricks that only exist cuz lack of code to check for such things. It's clear the game design wasn't so you could just go through the walls in Cameltry...or race at top speeds off the road in Outrun for any period of time...nonetheless extended periods of time as Hisa does. These are 2 very clear cut cases. Anyone that has played those games know how it should be played. There really isn't any speculation to make that conclusion. It's just common sense.

Do we want to ban some of the amazing shortcuts on marble madness? One of them is difficult and the other is nearly impossible.

What shortcuts are these? got an inp showing this?
I know of no "amazing" shortcuts in Marble Madness. There is one little shortcut that benefits you maybe 1-1.5 seconds at the most that I know of and have used myself. It's on that "Silly maze" where everything is backwards. You go up slopes instead of down etc...it's no big deal and easy to do. What's this other nearly impossible one you are talking about?

It's not a huge deal even for those that don't take that little shortcut as you aren't setting a score 10 times larger by doing the trick. you are only saving yourself 1-1.5 seconds which would add up to just a couple thousand points more. It's also a shortcut in playing the game you accidentally find. It's likely part of the Silly maze....not a bug. In the context of that silly maze of course no way to know if intentional or not. I lean toward it being intentional cuz it is a silly maze. Even if that is a bug the consequences of using it are so minor compared to the gameplay it doesn't really affect how you play the game at all except for that tiny little turn...which anyone can easily do. I'm not floating through space with my marble bypassing the entire maze part to just skip right to the goal in 0.5 seconds.

Did the programmers of pacman intend for players to use a 9th key pattern until the kill screen?

Well, they certainly programmed the fact all screens would be the same from the 9th key on....til the split screen.

I could bring up countless examples of games where the modern style of play probably had little to do with what the programmers envisioned when they made the game.

Of course...which is what many tricks are actually. They are using the controls in a way the designers didn't figure on so it can result in bypassing checks in the code to see if you are in contact with a wall to bounce off of it or if you just went from being on the road to off the road. Once you are in the wall no checks are being made. It's only at those borders. However, your other examples aren't bugs in the code, just stuff you can do in the game. When you group all enemies in Burgertime for massive points, you aren't using any weird trick or playing the game differently than what was imagined. You might be playing it at a skill level they didn't imagine....that's different. Same for pacman. They never felt anyone would be able to handle getting to the 9th key and playing through those and developing patterns. It's why the split-screen bug is there in pacman...and even earlier in jrpac and mspac...cuz they never figured any players would get that far so didn't check for it. They never felt anyone could reach 1 million points which is why that's 999,990 is as high as the score shows. Tons of games have that undersight of score display. That is a tiny bug that can easily be overlooked cuz in watching the inp you can track how many times it was turned over. That's not exploiting a bug in the code. You are still playing the game the same way with the same rules in pacman on the 100th 9th key board versus any other board. It's just skill in those games...no tricks. The warping to go through walls in cameltry isn't possible unless you set the controller sensitivity outrageously high. You are setting it beyond what the original arcade game controller likely would allow...so the game had a physical ceiling value for how quickly you could rotate the maze. The cameltry code works fine with those specs. Now change the hardware specs by using a different controller or in mame setting the sensitivity 20 times higher than normal...suddenly there is a bug appearing in the software that you couldn't see with the factory hardware and settings. You clearly aren't playing the game as they had designed it. This is about as clear cut a case as it gets. It's a shame some of these games have these types of bugs cuz then players exploit it to get higher scores which sort of spoils the fun. I do think MARP's tricks and easter eggs page is cool though but doesn't really have many entries. Hisa's Outrun and Cameltry inps should definitely get added to that page. That still allows you to see how the game could be played etc. for your entertainment.

It looks like I take a more liberal view of what should be allowed at MARP and you take a more stringent "TG-Style" view. Variety is the spice of life

Yes, we don't have to all feel the same way. I can fully see and understand why some have the view that whatever you can do in a game to get a high score should be allowed....but that is clearly the view of a couple other sites and scoreboards, not MARP. I only joined MARP and saw it for the first time last summer. MARP had tons of special rules for games and all this inp rules etc. long before I arrived here. I accept whatever special rules are set for games even if I don't totally agree with all of them. As QRS also said there are tons of games here...so it can take a while to develop what the playing rules will be for all of them. The default is to assume anything goes then when someone complains about a technqiue used, it's discussed then voted on. I think it would benefit MARP to do it the other way around. Not allow any tricks at all, then if someone wants to use a trick for a game they make a sample inp showing it then we watch it and discuss it and have a poll and vote whether that should be allowed or not. It seems odd currently MARP ahs the burden the other way around so a 34% vote to allow a trick in a game is enough for it to be allowed. Maybe the editors haven't looked at it that way though.

I think Novice's tricks in his inps with Outrun and Cameltry is just the tip of a big iceberg. Given it appears both of these are going to be allowed then it's carte blanche for him and others to submit other inps using tricks to get high scores. Given there are other score sites with tons of scores using tricks, it seems like these are all coming to MARP. Do you really want MARP to just be an inp trick site? Do you want many of the high scores to just be based on some trick versus seeing extreme skill? I thought the premise was to show masterful skill levels of play. Now some tricks are tough enough you maybe could say they are masterful. Most aren't though. Once you understand how to do the trick anyone beyond a newbie to the game can easily do the trick with a little practice. You would end up watching inps of those that have mastered the trick...not the game.

My opinions for rules for games are also with MARP's history in mind. If MARP had that point of view as you do, then it wouldn't have special rules for almost any games.

I hope some group from those other sites that also submits scores to MARP isn't trying to turn MARP into just another scoreboard like theirs. Let MARP be MARP.

I bet Gaz could break 210K if he used this shortcut:

http://marp.retrogames.com/inp/guin_mar ... _win62.zip

It is the Guinness recording of 'marble' and the shortcut appears at the very end of the last maze. It is quite impressive.

There is also the trick of falling off the side of the start of the 3rd maze. Some people don't think it saves much time, while other players like the method.

LN2 wrote:I almost think if/when a poll for this comes up we should actually propose a general rule that applies to all games at MARP where you can't exploit any trick or bug in the game to get a high score. This would cover all games instead of having separate polls for this or that game all the time that often say the same thing.

Now when I say "trick" here I mean a clear bug in the game code that is exploited by playing it a certain way different from what is "normal". In cases like Outrun and Cameltry it's clear both are cases where it isn't "normal" play of the game. It also would automatically cover many of the special rules already set like the 255 extra men in Mr. Do on stage 1...or 999,990 on Alpine Ski on the first downhill run. etc. All clearly bugs in the code that are exploited by doing something odd in playing the game.

First, congrats to Hisa for give us knowledge of many games.

I think these kind of tricks must be not allowed in marp. Even, if i amazed this one can be made. It's clearly not the way that the game must be played. Especially because this tick can't be made on the original arcad machine.

For Rick, I agree with your suggestion. Make a general rule is the best way for prevent this kind of record in the future.

In the jvrm site we have already banned all bugs/cheat based tricks.

Francois





First, congrt