TTYF´s (Hisa Chans) Camletry recording.

[QRS]

I decided to make a new post so we all can discuss Hisa Chans Cameltry-spc recording.

The game:
http://marp.retrogames.com/index.cgi?mo ... 00&tourn=0

The inp file:

http://marp.retrogames.com/inp/7nt_came ... mame65.zip

Ok guys, before you say anything about this watch the recording and don´t flame etc! Let us all be gentle and have a grown up discussion ok? I mean that from ALL of us! Inluding me!!

My personal opinion about this:

Hmm I have no idea actually. First time I have ever seen someone taking advantage of the "out of bounds" thing that can happen. It has happened to me a few times, but I had no idea how to get back on the track again

As a cameltry player myself, I see the difficulty in doing this.. and the bumper leeching on stage 2.
I don´t really like it, but I must say that I prolly can´t do it myself. (I have not tried it yet, but it looks hard)

As far as I´m concerned the recording is legal right now. But in a true Marp way, let´s discuss it shall we?

Let´s start!!

And please.. Opinions, no flames!!

Regards

QRS

[Novice]

Defcon=5

About the trick.
1 how to use blue ball.
start normally. it does not reflect strong. and it is important to bamper score improvement.
Blue ball only has this advantage. everything other factor is inferior than steel.
but we must select normal ball if you get high score.
even if finish the game become much more difficult.

2 how to warp
change controller's speed into maximum.
and when ball is not on the center of screen,turn map faster,
SOMETIMES(not always) ball will go out of screen.
Top players of those days used arcanoid controller instead of original.
it is much faster than camel try's.
this trick does not always work advantage.
and it is the reason I did not use this trick at stage 4 and 6.
If you luck enough, stage 6 's fastest record is 0.2 seconds.

3 how to score improvement
the map which computer recognize is not same as we can see.
stage 2's bamper has some space to stay.
if you strike ball into this space,you can get 15hits per seconds.
(=37,500 points/sec).

4 how to get last chance.
if your lowest 2 digits are "00" then, shot button faster as you can.
if not, you must get 1/10 th luck.
of course you can exit and finish score improvement faster.
but 20 seconds is worth 750K points. we had better use this trick also.
you have only 19% of chance. in other word 81% of replay will die here automatically.

5 another
I changed paddle speed from 255 to 15 at the last of stage 2.
so after stage 3, I can not use any trick any more.
if finish is not duty, I discarded 3.3 million points re-play tonight.

6 ultimate score
gamest record 9,999,990. special/expert.
1.1 million at beginner.no-record at training.
beginner course does not have good spot to get 500x5 points bonus.
so special/expert record was from blue ball. beginners record was from steel.

sorry for poor english.

[Chad]

your english is quite understandable. I had no idea the balls had different "propetries" but this is quite true as you can see the "lighter ball" bounces and rolls differently where hisa has much trouble completing the backwards conveyerbelt exit in world 10. one word: enlightening.

I have one question, how do you "change" the paddle speed?

[QRS]

The only different ball is the Iron ball I think. The rest of them (including the blue ball) are the same.

Blue ball is slower, but easier to use.
The Iron ball is faster, crushes bricks easier, but harder to navigate with. Bounces more easilly etc.

I think Hisa means the analouge controls when he talks about the paddle speed. The speed your mouse/spinner etc have when navigating the maze.


Cheers

[Haze]

is it even physically possible to turn the maze that fast on a real machine? if not isn't that really just cheating, taking advantage of a bug in the game which would never happen on the real machine.

[Mr. Kelly R. Flewin]

Dayum! That's all I can say... that is an INCREDIBLE recording... the bumper leeching was insane! I can TOTALLY see Stage 6's 0.2 second victory....

I think there's going to be some SERIOUS competition now ^^

So Hisa, care to show how it's done with the other courses?


Kelly

[The TJT]

First of all I say, I admire your knowledge of tricks Hisa, allways nice to see something new Where the hell you get all this stuff... I know people even sell videos of their gameplay at Japan

Nevertheless this is obvious tipstricksbugseastereggs stuff imo.

As I have said before, 20 second bonus is based on luck, and should not be used at all. Not nice to stop the game 4 times out of five -because of pure bad luck.

Bumber leech is very obvious this case, I believe this is also based very much on luck, just get the ball there. -You should allways be careful what you ask/vote for...you might just get it

Also, that is not "warping", it's exploiting a bug again...As hisa said, it depends on luck too. -where the ball will appear

People used arkanoid spinner for this fast spinning...I assume the original game spinner didn't work for these cheats.

Finally, I believe changing sensitivity settings in the middle of the game is not allowed...you could not do that at original arcade...


Propably this "warping" can be used at all courses...which ruins the original gameplay concept totally +the FUN of playing it.

Tommi (who still thinks simple time based scoring would be best)

[The TJT]

It was entertaining though, even though the "actual" gameplay wasn't so hot.

Not as entertaining as this thread will propably be

[LN2]

First, just like I did for Outrun, I watched Hisa's inp playback before making any comments.

All of these comments are just providing info and giving my opinion about the game. It isn't complaining Novice so I don't want to hear anything like that in any reply you have. Keep it to a discussion of the game...not personal.

It plays back to the score reported. That's clear. Within the current "rules" for this game at MARP what he did is currently legal also...I concede that.

However, should a poll be done for a new rule be put to disallow that type of play for this game?

Absolutely!

Here is why.

1) First, Kelly, you said that's an incredible recording. Please watch QRS's or my inp of that on the special course and you tell me if you think Novice's play of the game was actually more skilled than QRS's or mine.

I actually was laughing when watching the playback at the very end seeing him trying to reach that final goal...took him forever to do that.

-------

2) Novice himself concedes above that in the original Cameltry game this "trick" was IMPOSSIBLE!!! This means even though I think it's already obvious the designers and game never intended for you to warp through walls etc. that the fact Novice/Hisa himself admits you couldn't do this trick in the original arcade game is enough to not allow this technique in MAME. They found that trick on a modified arcade game with a much more sensitive and different controller.

He states very clearly that you can't do this trick without setting the controller sensitivity really high. It's clear this game as a flaw that by using a different controller versus what the actual game had, you can make the maze move so suddenly that the ball warps slightly where you can get into the walls. It's only this that allows him to get into that small space behind the bumper to leech close to 2 million points at that 1 spot.

MAME allows you to set the speed for rotating the maze beyond what the designers had in the arcade machine. Therefore the emulation of the original game actually breaks down and allows that trick to be done.

To make the ball "warp" and get into the walls is not a move that really requires a lot of skill. It does some luck to get it just right in that small space spot though so you stay right on that bumper and leech 2 million points though. I guess that's why as Hisa said it took him 400+ tries to do this.

My guess is it also took him 400+ times cuz I'd bet he had many many times he pulled that leech move off but then didn't get the lottery +20 seconds add on time which you will likely need to match his score....although you can warp on other worlds also to likely get more points. I'm surprised Hisa didn't do this beyond the first 2 stages.

----------------

3) To me MARP is a high score site that has recordings of the top scores for each game as an example of high skill levels of play. I think using tricks that were even impossible in the original arcade design is going beyond just skill and changes the game into something else it isn't. Do you really want to cheapen what high scores mean here at MARP by having scores for many games actually just being cheap tricks to exploit bugs in games? I always figured no cuz on my first visit in checking out MARP I saw how many special rules they have for games and how they use inp playback etc. for verification. Other score sites allow any tricks to be used etc. but the history of MARP indicates that isn't the case here.

4) He said after the end of that bumper leeching he changed his controller sensitivity so he could play out the rest of the game...cuz to play it at max sensitivity which was necessary for the trick makes playing the rest too difficult.

Does MARP have a policy about changing control during a game? You certainly couldn't do this with an arcade game and wouldn't be able to alter sensitivity of the dial during play. I think whatever sensitivity settings you use at the beginning should remain for the entire game.

If a poll is done and it ends up MARP allows this I would hope it's only for 1 of the sets. I wish it wasn't for the main set though, but one of the alternate sets like that USA, alt sound that has sound issues or something.

I think it would be an "ok" compromise to allow this for 1 of the sets. I am not sure if I would attempt to do that though. I play games the way they were meant to be played. I don't like using tricks to gain an advantage over everyone else cuz if you do that then all must use the trick to achieve the same level of score. If all inps for a game are just using some trick to get mega scores then where are the inps showing great skill playing the game as designed? They are lost in those cases. Odds are others would only be viewing the top couple of scores thinking all lower scores are inferior skill...when they might not be at all.

Soon we will be renaming MARP to MTRP meaning MAME Trick Replay Page. MARP has a separate page for tricks for games to get really high scores. I think this 2.2 million Cameltry inp belongs there...not in the high scores.

I could fairly easily beat Hisa's score using that trick if I wanted to...and if I can even do that on my system. I'm not sure I can cuz I have to use frameskip 6 to play the game at speed...which might affect if this trick can be done or not....would have to try it to see.

[QRS]

ahh a lot of response so far and yet no flames! good job guys! Let´s make this thread free of this! Or at least try

Cheers

[Novice]

ahh a lot of response so far and yet no flames! good job guys! Let´s make this thread free of this! Or at least try

Cheers

1 these tricks are possible at actual machine.
QRS also sometimes do it by yourself not intentionally.
those days players change controller to play this intenrionally with ease.
to tell the truth,pad speed=255 is not enough.


2 Kelly, if you want to see some of them, vote to "admit".
I do not want to waste such effort any more.that recording seemed cheap one,but very painful effort require.
I can finish stage 1 once out of 10 times.(re-start easily,so,not painful)
I can stay sweet spot at stage 2,once out of 10 times.
and I can get lucky once out of 5 times..
I waste this weekend for that 1 recording.(I admit, I also stupid/crazy)


3 change controller speed is by the configration.
set the config at analog controller and at the demo of stage 2 finish,
tab+left left left........
to change into normal speed is necesary to finish the game.
so when I change is one big problem.
change it during score improvement, I could not exit from the sweet spot. (It makes 3.3 million,but die at stage 2)
I now think,during lottary is reasonable.

4 default speed (speed 20,sensible 100%) is nonsence.
starblade/solvalou 's analog controller is "more than 20 times faster" than actual machine.

5 To own the knowledge of such type of trick makes play as unique one.
so all top players never select steel at special/expert course.

6 I never anger for anyone who can understand 1% of these painful effort.
current system makes 3 same style (steel ball crash and crash) play.
it is boring is not it?

7 TJT, of course this game has time trial section.
high score is 9,999,990. fastest time is 49"3.
in other word , average lap times are 4.93 seconds.
if you master warp with steel ball...0.6 sec at stage 4,0.2 sec at stage 6..

[Novice]

Defcon= 5(keep ignore)

ahh a lot of response so far and yet no flames! good job guys! Let´s make this thread free of this! Or at least try

Cheers

1 these tricks are possible at actual machine.
QRS also sometimes do it by himself not intentionally.
those days players change controller to play this intenrionally with ease.
to tell the truth,pad speed=255 is not enough.


2 Kelly, if you want to see some of them, vote to "admit".
I do not want to waste such effort any more.that recording seemed cheap one,but very painful effort require.
I can finish stage 1 once out of 10 times.(re-start easily,so,not painful)
I can stay sweet spot at stage 2,once out of 10 times.
and I can get lucky once out of 5 times..
I waste this weekend for that 1 recording.(I admit, I also stupid/crazy)


3 change controller speed is by the configration.
set the config at analog controller and at the demo of stage 2 finish,
tab+left left left........
to change into normal speed is necesary to finish the game.
so when I change is one big problem.
change it during score improvement, I could not exit from the sweet spot. (It makes 3.3 million,but die at stage 2)
I now think,during lottary is reasonable.

4 default speed (speed 20,sensible 100%) is nonsence.
starblade/solvalou 's analog controller is "more than 20 times faster" than actual machine.

5 To own the knowledge of such type of trick makes play as unique one.
so all top players never select steel at special/expert course.

6 I never anger for anyone who can understand 1% of these painful effort.
current system makes 3 same style (steel ball crash and crash) play.
it is boring is not it?

7 TJT, of course this game has time trial section.
high score is 9,999,990. fastest time is 49"3.
in other word , average lap times are 4.93 seconds.
if you master warp with steel ball...0.6 sec at stage 4,0.2 sec at stage 6..

[Oakster]

Ok Ive looked at this worthless piece of inp, and *urk*
Well its not totally bad because its always nice to see some new tricks, but I dont know which is most fun, the bugtricks or that there is games that Hisa totally can not play.
This was an inp with no skill what so ever! Anyone can learn to do that, not many can play the game with the beuty and finess as Rick and QRS gives us!

Contenta: Thank you for some really nice cheets, I hope Ill see them on the "Tricks, Ester eggs, and Bugs"-page

...and for some REAL skill: watch Ricks & Anders inps

bye bye David

[LN2]

4 default speed (speed 20,sensible 100%) is nonsence.
starblade/solvalou 's analog controller is "more than 20 times faster" than actual machine.

FYI, I actually use 80% sensitivity for the analog control for the "dial" and use my mouse for Cameltry and the scores I submitted. I don't use the keys at all...100% mouse.

So setting the controller 20 times more sensitive than the actual machine seems ok to you?

It's just a flaw in the game where they had the "max" rotation of the maze from the original arcade controller hardware set at factory sensitivity defaults instead of adding some software limitation to that maze rotation speed. Other somewhat related games like Marble Madness do seem to have some max ball speed cuz no matter how high you set the sensitivity you can only go so fast.

5 To own the knowledge of such type of trick makes play as unique one.
so all top players never select steel at special/expert course.

Yes, playing that way is certainly different. I'll give you that.

6 I never anger for anyone who can understand 1% of these painful effort.

Setting records for scores isn't something that matters based on effort.
You sort of did this with your Outrun discussion also. You said something there also like the above saying roughly...I put in this great effort to get this score learning and using a trick to exploit a bug/flaw in the game code. Therefore that equals great "skill" and deserves to be counted cuz I wasted my whole weekend playing the game. Just cuz you wasted the whole weekend doesn't make the technique any more or any less legal.

Ok, using your system to get value to scores if you think QRS's or my scores were done in only a few runs you are kidding yourself. It took a lot of play to reach that level of play. The competition between both of us puhsed us both to improve our skills of that to a much higher level than we had previously. I'm sure we put in at least as much effort to get our scores as you did to get the combination of luck you needed to get the ball right in that space and get the lottery 20 seconds etc. as you said above....took luck.

current system makes 3 same style (steel ball crash and crash) play.
it is boring is not it?

Not sure what you mean by "crash and crash". If your "crash" actually means "crush"ing blocks that is part of the game design. Warping through walls to get in weird spots isn't part of the game design. It's why for the bumper leeching that was allowed as long as you finish the game cuz the bumpers are certainly part of the game.

7 TJT, of course this game has time trial section.
high score is 9,999,990. fastest time is 49"3.
in other word , average lap times are 4.93 seconds.
if you master warp with steel ball...0.6 sec at stage 4,0.2 sec at stage 6..

It sounds like gamest or wherever you are quoting all these high scores from have no rules at all for the games so you can play them however is possible to get the highest score possible and it's all allowed.

That's fine for them. It's not what MARP does though. After your last couple of scores for Outrun and now Cameltry it makes me wonder if you have exploited tricks/bugs in games of other scores you have submitted to MARP that just went unnoticed because they aren't as popular. If none that's fine...but why would you suddenly start using cheap tricks to get high scores if you never did it in the past already? You definitely seem to do research at other sites to find all these various tricks to help yourself get high scores. Sorry, just suspicious now is all after seeing these last couple of inps of yours.

I almost think if/when a poll for this comes up we should actually propose a general rule that applies to all games at MARP where you can't exploit any trick or bug in the game to get a high score. This would cover all games instead of having separate polls for this or that game all the time that often say the same thing.

Now when I say "trick" here I mean a clear bug in the game code that is exploited by playing it a certain way different from what is "normal". In cases like Outrun and Cameltry it's clear both are cases where it isn't "normal" play of the game. It also would automatically cover many of the special rules already set like the 255 extra men in Mr. Do on stage 1...or 999,990 on Alpine Ski on the first downhill run. etc. All clearly bugs in the code that are exploited by doing something odd in playing the game.

[LN2]

...and for some REAL skill: watch Ricks & Anders inps

bye bye David

thx David.

Did you actually view any of my inps for this though? They only seem to totally playback correctly in macmame. If so...did you play them back on a mac or PC? if a PC, which one(s) played back ok? It would be nice to at least have a couple of those confirmed.