forums.marpirc.net

OK, I've put together all of the issues raised on the scoring system thread, and there are some excellent suggestions! Great input!
Perhaps we can start voting on these ideas to decide if we want to proceed and if we agree to do anything, then figure out the how...

<p>

There's really two main categories: Leaderboard scoring--what counts and what doesn't and then the wonderful clone problem. If I'm not mistaken, for each item the first 11 AYEs or NAYs is what we'll do.

<p>

Leaderboard Issues:
Use Percentage Scoring System (top score=100%): YES
Allow scores outside of top 3 to count: YES
Allow scores from games in current betas: NO
Allow scores from games recorded before ROM changes: NO
Enforce a minimum req'd score (e.g. 10% of top) or only top X: NO
Allow unethical play/point leeching/slow rates/sound off: NO

<p>

Clone Issues:
In general, clones will not count (with exceptions below): YES
Allow clones with clear differences in gameplay (e.g. Trog): YES
Allow clones when originals aren't working (e.g. Choplifter): YES
Allow clones in multi-game variations (e.g. bowlrama): YES
Allow clones--harder or sped-up (e.g. Asteroids, Ms. Pac Turbo): NO
Allow originals that are actually clones (e.g. Hyper Olympic): NO

--
laffaye@ibm.net

Leaderboard Issues:
Use Percentage Scoring System (top score=100%): YES
Allow scores outside of top 3 to count: YES
Allow scores from games in current betas: YES
Allow scores from games recorded before ROM changes: NO
Enforce a minimum req'd score (e.g. 10% of top) or only top X: NO
Allow unethical play/point leeching/slow rates/sound off: NO

<p>

Clone Issues:
In general, clones will not count (with exceptions below): YES
Allow clones with clear differences in gameplay (e.g. Trog): YES
Allow clones when originals aren't working (e.g. Choplifter): YES
Allow clones in multi-game variations (e.g. bowlrama): YES
Allow clones--harder or sped-up (e.g. Asteroids, Ms. Pac Turbo): NO
Allow originals that are actually clones (e.g. Hyper Olympic): NO

--
dith@europress.co.uk

Sound off!? Did I miss something?
<p>

1. Not all the games have sound emulated yet! 2. On older, but not yet
obsolete, systems like mine hitting 100% framerate is impossible with
sound using the old frameskip system. I think Discs of Tron hovered
around 85-90% with frameskip 3, when it was only displaying 7.5 frames
per second (Only runs 30 fps at full, most arcade games run 60fps at
full).

<p>

As for the rest of it:

<p>

Leaderboard Issues:
Use Percentage Scoring System (top score=100%): YES
Allow scores outside of top 3 to count: YES
Allow scores from games in current betas: YES
Allow scores from games recorded before ROM changes: YES
Enforce a minimum req'd score (e.g. 10% of top) or only top X: NO
Allow unethical play/point leeching/slow rates: NO

<p>

SOUND OFF: YES

<p>

Clone Issues:
In general, clones will not count (with exceptions below): YES
Allow clones with clear differences in gameplay (e.g. Trog): YES
Allow clones when originals aren't working (e.g. Choplifter): YES
Allow clones in multi-game variations (e.g. bowlrama): YES
Allow clones--harder or sped-up (e.g. Asteroids, Ms. Pac Turbo): YES
Allow originals that are actually clones (e.g. Hyper Olympic): NO

<p>

Aqua

--
aquatarkus@digicron.com

My votes are...
<p>

Leaderboard Issues: Use Percentage Scoring System (top score=100%):
YES Allow scores outside of top 3 to count: YES Allow scores from
games in current betas: NO Allow scores from games recorded before
ROM changes: NO Enforce a minimum req'd score (e.g. 10% of top) or
only top X: NO Allow unethical play/point leeching/slow rates/sound
off: NO

<p>

Clone Issues: In general, clones will not count (with exceptions
below): YES Allow clones with clear differences in gameplay (e.g.
Trog): YES Allow clones when originals aren't working (e.g.
Choplifter): YES Allow clones in multi-game variations (e.g.
bowlrama): YES Allow clones--harder or sped-up (e.g. Asteroids, Ms.
Pac Turbo): NO Allow originals that are actually clones (e.g. Hyper
Olympic): NO

--
sjh1@sjh1.swinternet.co.uk

I might as well jump on the band wagon.
<p>


Leaderboard Issues: Use Percentage Scoring System (top score=100%):
"YES" Allow scores outside of top 3 to count: "YES" Allow scores
from games in current betas: "NO" Allow scores from games recorded
before ROM changes: "NO" Enforce a minimum req'd score (e.g. 10% of
top) or only top X: "NO" Allow unethical play/point leeching/slow
rates/sound off: "NO"

<p>

*** Although, I ALWAYS play with sound off when playing in dos
because my soundcard doesn't have the capability of running mame with
sound. In windows, it depends, weather or not it slows down the
emulation process. ***

<p>

Clone Issues: In general, clones will not count (with exceptions
below): "YES" Allow clones with clear differences in gameplay (e.g.
Trog): "YES" Allow clones when originals aren't working (e.g.
Choplifter): "YES" (another ex. is Popeye) Allow clones in multi-
game variations (e.g. bowlrama): "YES" Allow clones--harder or sped-
up (e.g. Asteroids, Ms. Pac Turbo): "YES" Allow originals that are
actually clones (e.g. Hyper Olympic): "NO"

<p>

*** I spoke once before about the differences between Ms Pacman and
Ms Pacman Turbo. Yes, the pacman moves faster. If the ghosts did
too at the same rate, then I would say other then it's 'twice' the
speed, the game is still the same. The turbo ver. changes the whole
game around in a way that performing the same techniques you would
normally do on the original, you can't perform on the turbo ver.
consistantly. Also, I almost want to consider Galaga Turbo Fire in
the same way, but the majority of the game is still the same with
exceptions to the bullets at times going through the enemy making it
just as hard as the original. There's just not enough of this ver.
to allow it to be considered totally differnet in game play from the
original fire ver. ***

<p>

Regards,
Steve Krogman

--
skrogman@concentric.net

Use Percentage Scoring System (top score=100%): YES
Allow scores outside of top 3 to count: YES
Allow scores from games in current betas: YES (see * below)
Allow scores from games recorded before ROM changes: NO
Enforce a minimum req'd score (e.g. 10% of top) or only top X: NO
Allow unethical play/point leeching/slow rates/sound off: NO (see
** below)

<p>

*So if our favorite game gets added to MAME 0.36 Beta 1, we have to
wait until the final version to submit scores? Sometimes a fully
working game is added to a beta, and sometimes an incomplete, not
properly emulated version is left in the final. I'd say "judge this
on a game-by-game basis" but I think we'll be doing enough of that if
these changes take effect.)

<p>

**Sound off? guh? I know that leaving sound on or off can make a
difference in the playback, but turning sound off speeds up the game
and lets them play at an acceptable speed in some games! If the
recording is affected by sound, just say so in the description. Simple
as that)

<p>

Clone Issues:
In general, clones will not count (with exceptions below): YES
Allow clones with clear differences in gameplay (e.g. Trog): YES
Allow clones when originals aren't working (e.g. Choplifter): YES
Allow clones in multi-game variations (e.g. bowlrama): YES
Allow clones--harder or sped-up (e.g. Asteroids, Ms. Pac Turbo): NO
Allow originals that are actually clones (e.g. Hyper Olympic): NO

--
lordbbh@aol.com

Leaderboard Issues: Use Percentage Scoring System (top score=100%):
YES Allow scores outside of top 3 to count: YES Allow scores from
games in current betas: YES Allow scores from games recorded before
ROM changes: NO Enforce a minimum req'd score (e.g. 10% of top) or
only top X: YES Allow unethical play/point leeching/slow rates/sound
off: NO
Except for the sound issue, I do accept the Sound Off

<p>

Clone Issues: In general, clones will not count (with exceptions
below): YES Allow clones with clear differences in gameplay (e.g.
Trog): YES Allow clones when originals aren't working (e.g.
Choplifter): YES Allow clones in multi-game variations (e.g.
bowlrama): YES Allow clones--harder or sped-up (e.g. Asteroids, Ms.
Pac Turbo): YES Allow originals that are actually clones (e.g. Hyper
Olympic): NO

--
germanc@netverk.com.ar

Sorry, German Castagnasso is, actually German Krol

--
germanc@netverk.com.ar

Per the invitation of Pat... I will now cast a vote
<p>

Leaderboard Issues: Use Percentage Scoring System (top score=100%):
YES Allow scores outside of top 3 to count: YES Allow scores from
games in current betas: YES Allow scores from games recorded before
ROM changes: NO Enforce a minimum req'd score (e.g. 10% of top) or
only top X: NO Allow unethical play/point leeching/slow rates/sound
off: NO

<p>

Clone Issues: In general, clones will not count (with exceptions
below): YES Allow clones with clear differences in gameplay (e.g.
Trog): YES Allow clones when originals aren't working (e.g.
Choplifter): YES Allow clones in multi-game variations (e.g.
bowlrama): YES Allow clones--harder or sped-up (e.g. Asteroids, Ms.
Pac Turbo): YES Allow originals that are actually clones (e.g. Hyper
Olympic): NO

--
goldengameboy@geocities.com

Now that we know the right Thread to be on, ditto:)
<p>

Leaderboard Issues: Use Percentage Scoring System (top score=100%):
YES Allow scores outside of top 3 to count: YES Allow scores from
games in current betas: YES Allow scores from games recorded before
ROM changes: YES Enforce a minimum req'd score (e.g. 10% of top) or
only top X: NO Allow unethical play/point leeching/slow rates/sound
off: NO

<p>

*** although i don't think playing with sound off is unethical at any
rate. If people need the frame rate to play, then turning sound off
is cool, even though it makes a sucky playback. There should be
standard of points leeching, no repetative points leeching for more
than 5 seconds, or such, so people won't be accidentally acused of
points leeching if they can move on after such and such a time.

<p>

Clone Issues: In general, clones will not count (with exceptions
below): NO Allow clones with clear differences in gameplay (e.g.
Trog): YES Allow clones when originals aren't working (e.g.
Choplifter): YES Allow clones in multi-game variations (e.g.
bowlrama): YES Allow clones--harder or sped-up (e.g. Asteroids, Ms.
Pac Turbo): YES Allow originals that are actually clones (e.g. Hyper
Olympic): YES

<p>

**** I think ALL clones should be allowed but a reduced scoreing
method should take place on a clone or it's parrent. I think this
gives a greater chance of having a more killer score to watch, because
more game play will be forced. I also believe clone selection to be
allowed or disallowed would be flawed more so than allowing all clones
at a reduced scoring rate, even though one clone may be harder than
another, they are still the same game/graphics/idea to play, even
trogp. An Example Scoring method where clones are reduced in score,
is in the "Clone Score" thread.

--
churritz@cts.com

Um, I'm still not sure what all the fuss about the MARP leaderboard
is for. I actually *like* the leaderboard the way it is.

<p>

Have a look at Zwaxy's experimental percentage based leaderboard. It
obviously paints a much different picture than the current
leaderboard. Most of you don't realize that some of us have been
posting scores into MARP for close to, or over a year now. Since the
percentage scoring takes into account *every* score you have ever
submitted, the old-timers will suffer a great deal from the days when
you would post a weak score on a game that you didn't know well to
get the leaderboard points.

<p>

Today's MARP has become much more competitive, new players are coming
in all the time, bettering some of the early scores that were posted
a long time ago. The percentage system gives a distinct edge to NEW
players; anyone can come in from scratch, get the number 1 score on
10 or so games, and have a perfect 100% ranking.

<p>

The percentage system does not reflect the amount of time and effort
many of us have spent submitting scores into the MARP page.

<p>

The only possible change that I would be open to is a limitation of
clone games. If true clone games (ie, Pac Man vs. Pac Man (Namco))
were set up to cancel each other out, this would be fine with me.
Otherwise I feel that everything should stay AS IS.

<p>

Just my $.02.

<p>

=Angry=

--
greggg@ix.netcom.com

I think the percentage system being recommended here is not a averaged
percentage but an added one, where the top player gets 100 points and
the player who gets 80% of the top score gets 80 points. Am i correct
here? I don't think anyone would want an averaged percentage where if
someone just happens to get a few top scores then their total leader
board score is 100, and the runners up are BBH and krog with 99

--
churritz@cts.com

I think Skito/Chad's got it right - people won't go top for having 10 out of 10 1st places. You get 100 points for 1st place, but you get 50 points for 2nd place if you score half as much as 1st place, and only 10 points for 2nd place if you score a tenth of the top score. If you're 11th for the game with a score of half of the highests for that game, you still get the 50 points. It just makes it a little fairer - if I miss 2nd place by a tiny amount, I'll get 99 points with the percentage scheme, whereas I'd only get 3 points with the current scheme.
<p>

Chris.

--
zwaxy@bigfoot.com

The fuss here is simple: there are way too many leaderboard points up
for grabs and the lion's share of points go to a few players. There
is too big a point disparity between 1st & 2nd place. No points for
4th+, etc. Reread my PRS thread for more... Whenever a new release
comes out, everyone races around to see who can play the most games
and get most 10 pointers. Also, within a release, an unusually high
number of games will be CLONES which gives further advantage to
players that have already mastered those games. This approach rewards
on QUANTITY which is wrong!! Points should be given out based on the
QUALITY of recordings, not how quickly people put up crappy scores.

<p>

Unfortunately, it is my belief that the current leaderboard emphasizes
quantity and the experimental percentage system would somewhat reward
for quality. That is why I came up with a formula to strikes a
balance between the two. However, in e-mails with Zwaxy, he did not
understand this point and hence it didn't show up in the experimental
page. Fine, afterall this is his site. The PRS formula gives points
for both quality and quantity, and my earlier tests showed that it
didn't shake up the standings at the very top too much. Most of the
significant changes occured in the middle the pack. However, if I had
to choose between the current leaderboard system and percentage based
scoring: Percentage scoring is much more reflective as to what's
really going on here.

--
laffaye@ibm.net

Clones are bad.
<p>

I think the percentage scoring is needed, because it is a fairer
indication of skill at the majority of games than the medal system. I
also believe the percentage scoring would be an incentive for people
to play "older" MAME entries rather than focusing on the "beta gold
rush".

<p>

I'd set it up as an additive score, instead of the average score per
game like the experimental is now. I don't see the point in punishing
people for taking chances - it's embarrassing enough having a score
reduced to 5% of the high already, and the leaderboard will become
more accurate with time as the leader of each game improves to push
the others down.

<p>

Aqua

--
aquatarkus@digicron.com