TG settings:
So as marp accepts TG settings, it's enough to just put "TG settings" in description. No need for special rule here.1942 Normal 3 20,000 every 80,000 Yes
Acceptable Settings for 1942/MARP Rule 2h
Moderator: BBH
As announced previously, further discussion in re: MARP acceptable settings will be moved to this forum.
This is also as good a time as any for me to once again point out in this forum the calamitous nature of MARP Rule 2h.
Why on earth base acceptability at MARP on settings decided upon by TG, completely outside of MARP's influence?
The rule is, in fact, contradictory in cases (and we are discovering more and more of them) where TG settings are more lenient, or "easier" than MAME defaults.
"A recording set at easier or different settings is subject to deletion, especially if it is higher than others at more difficult settings."
Unless, that is, TG gives its blessings.
Horseshit.
This is also as good a time as any for me to once again point out in this forum the calamitous nature of MARP Rule 2h.
Why on earth base acceptability at MARP on settings decided upon by TG, completely outside of MARP's influence?
The rule is, in fact, contradictory in cases (and we are discovering more and more of them) where TG settings are more lenient, or "easier" than MAME defaults.
"A recording set at easier or different settings is subject to deletion, especially if it is higher than others at more difficult settings."
Unless, that is, TG gives its blessings.
Horseshit.
John Cunningham (JTC)
I think the whole original concept of showing "TG settings" in a description for scores submitted to MARP was where TG staff(well, Mark) would check MARP and search for "TG" in the description to get the replay files for new TG submissions.Weehawk wrote:Why on earth base acceptability at MARP on settings decided upon by TG, completely outside of MARP's influence?
This was back when MAME was still fairly new so there weren't many scores being posted. With the growth of MAME and gamers using MAME, this has gotten too large for TG staff to track anymore.
Anyone wishing a score get posted to TG must go through the proper TG submission process.
care to list examples? It's possible in many of those cases the track settings can be adjusted to match what factory settings were if the current TG settings are easier.The rule is, in fact, contradictory in cases (and we are discovering more and more of them) where TG settings are more lenient, or "easier" than MAME defaults.
The only couple I can think of are for games like Make Trax/Crush Brush..where for one of these tracks TG allows for 5 start men...even though the factory default is 3 start men. The other track does match the only 3 start men....which is what MARP uses for both since 3 start is the MAME default and factory setting.
I think that was done cuz the first TG-MAME tournament/event used 5 start men. It wasn't really intended at the time to become the track setting..but that is what happened.
MAME defaults generally are intended to be the game's factory/manufacturer's settings. TG settings are all games are to match those factory settings or be more difficult..with only a couple of exceptions...one noted above. It's not several that I am aware of. Please keep in mind though that as the tons of new MAME tracks get on the TG scoreboard that initial settings for them are often a "guess" and just using the MAME default in many cases.
I think that Pete made the rules before Mark decided to do some of the games 5-men only. In some cases the TG settings became easier, but mostly they are harder than default. Two examples of easier settings are Pengo and Scramble. I would really start to worry about this of there were tons of games with TG settings that were easier. Right now there ain't many. Things can change though and it might be best to be prepared 
QRS
TG is not influential as you believe.
Part of the problem is that back before the turn of the century there were two accepted ways to use game settings: those based on MAME defaults AND those with the player option to use settings based on ARCADE records. Since early on MAME had mostly classics and records for those games had been kept by TG since the early eighties, it only made sense to "allow" that second option to be consistant. Afterall, that was already an established standard, even more so if in persuit of a arcade WR.
As MARP grew in popularity, and scores kept rising, particularly for marathonable games, it became acceptable to state "TG - 5 men only" but this in turn carried over to other games where there were already WR's in place. Frogger is another game where the TG settings are easier, so in effect stating "TGTS" or "TG Settings Used" clears up the issue of starting men. I'd argue there are fewer than a dozen games where this is the case. Remember, the vast majority of games have no TG settings!!
With Mark Longridge tracking of MAME high scores was always confined to the classic era. When he later joined TG and the Deca tourneys kicked into high gear, the scope of TG settings increased dramatically. Again most settings were set to be harder than default. I don't believe any newer games have this issue.
Even back in 2000 when the MARP rule was made, it was too late to have ONE rule that uses default settings ONLY. Technically the mistakes were already made in the eighties when everything could have been standardized then. There are so many setting combinations, which do you chose?
You could have 3 men, hardest possible setting. Or how about max out the men and set everthing to easy. Someone had to set the standard and for MARP to boil it all down to 2 options is most acceptable. All references to TG provides a level-set for comparision to arcade scores.
Part of the problem is that back before the turn of the century there were two accepted ways to use game settings: those based on MAME defaults AND those with the player option to use settings based on ARCADE records. Since early on MAME had mostly classics and records for those games had been kept by TG since the early eighties, it only made sense to "allow" that second option to be consistant. Afterall, that was already an established standard, even more so if in persuit of a arcade WR.
As MARP grew in popularity, and scores kept rising, particularly for marathonable games, it became acceptable to state "TG - 5 men only" but this in turn carried over to other games where there were already WR's in place. Frogger is another game where the TG settings are easier, so in effect stating "TGTS" or "TG Settings Used" clears up the issue of starting men. I'd argue there are fewer than a dozen games where this is the case. Remember, the vast majority of games have no TG settings!!
With Mark Longridge tracking of MAME high scores was always confined to the classic era. When he later joined TG and the Deca tourneys kicked into high gear, the scope of TG settings increased dramatically. Again most settings were set to be harder than default. I don't believe any newer games have this issue.
Even back in 2000 when the MARP rule was made, it was too late to have ONE rule that uses default settings ONLY. Technically the mistakes were already made in the eighties when everything could have been standardized then. There are so many setting combinations, which do you chose?
You could have 3 men, hardest possible setting. Or how about max out the men and set everthing to easy. Someone had to set the standard and for MARP to boil it all down to 2 options is most acceptable. All references to TG provides a level-set for comparision to arcade scores.
I would like to add that many many times I have seen "TG settings" or "TG" in the description when the gamer did NOT use TG settings at all etc. I have no idea why they put TG in their description....perhaps they think TG refs don't even check the game settings in replays? cmon.***PL*** wrote:marathonable games, it became acceptable to state "TG - 5 men only" but this in turn carried over to other games where there were already WR's in place.
I also have seen "TG" in descriptions for several games where TG doesn't even have an established track and thus has no established game settings for that track yet.
I agree though that for MARP to accept the score and not zero it then game settings must be at least as difficult as the default MAME or special MARP settings. In most cases this is true...but as said above there are a handful of cases where it's not...and currently gamers can take advantage of that playing the game at easier settings....not kosher IMHO.
I don't see much wrong with this rule. TG or MAME default. If MAME or TG settings change to easier than before, then that's a problem.h) Recording submissions must be recorded with that particular ROMset's defaults or TG (Twin Galaxies) settings. A recording set at easier or different settings is subject to deletion, especially if it is higher than others at more difficult settings. Recording on TG settings, which are the official arcade game settings, is preferred, and will gain your scores further notice from your fellow players.
Special rules can allways be made to overrule these, if necessary.
As it is, there are too many Marp recordings that use TG settings, to get rid of TG settings!
I'm all for cooperation with TG and Marp. Both are filled with die hard arcade fans!
If you want to talk about TG vs Marp(uppercase) politics, please PM me. I'll be happy to talk with you.
Thx.
Like I wouldn't have enough thinking with other conversations! Geez!PL wrote: Someone had to set the standard and for MARP to boil it all down to 2 options is most acceptable. All references to TG provides a level-set for comparision to arcade scores.
Which TG settings
Ok, if TG settings are allowed, what is the canonical reference source for them? For at least some games, http://cubeman.org/tgts.txt and searching at http://www.twingalaxies.com give different settings for the MAME track.
For example, Bump N Jump is listed at cubeman.org as:
Difficulty Hard, 3 Man Start, 1 Extra at 30K and no more
The twingalaxies database MAME track at http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx? ... 32&vi=7700 lists:
Difficulty Hard, 3 Man Start, Extras every 30K
Jungle Hunt is listed at cubeman.org as:
3 Man Start, Extra at 10K, Finish Bonus = 2X
The twingalaxies database MAME track at http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx? ... 79&vi=7750 lists:
3 Man Start, No Extra, No Finish Bonus
-gastrainga
For example, Bump N Jump is listed at cubeman.org as:
Difficulty Hard, 3 Man Start, 1 Extra at 30K and no more
The twingalaxies database MAME track at http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx? ... 32&vi=7700 lists:
Difficulty Hard, 3 Man Start, Extras every 30K
Jungle Hunt is listed at cubeman.org as:
3 Man Start, Extra at 10K, Finish Bonus = 2X
The twingalaxies database MAME track at http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx? ... 79&vi=7750 lists:
3 Man Start, No Extra, No Finish Bonus
-gastrainga
Re: Which TG settings
Yes, Rule 2h is a bag of snakes.Zhorik wrote:Ok, if TG settings are allowed, what is the canonical reference source for them? For at least some games, http://cubeman.org/tgts.txt and searching at http://www.twingalaxies.com give different settings for the MAME track.
For example, Bump N Jump is listed at cubeman.org as:
Difficulty Hard, 3 Man Start, 1 Extra at 30K and no more
The twingalaxies database MAME track at http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx? ... 32&vi=7700 lists:
Difficulty Hard, 3 Man Start, Extras every 30K
Jungle Hunt is listed at cubeman.org as:
3 Man Start, Extra at 10K, Finish Bonus = 2X
The twingalaxies database MAME track at http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx? ... 79&vi=7750 lists:
3 Man Start, No Extra, No Finish Bonus
-gastrainga
Try to straighten them out if you like.
I'd toss it in the river.
John Cunningham (JTC)
Re: Which TG settings
Both are the two valid sources for TG settings. If there is a discrepency between them, I would use Mark's. Given that Mark originated the list and then later it was folded into TG's website, I'd have to say Mark's is the trusted source. Mark is much more through than the temps hired to post those settings back in 2001. And given TG's continued lax effort in keeping its scores and associated settings up to date, I would be inclined to believe Mark even more so because he concentrated solely on those games and only on the MAME platform. Very focused effort on his part.Zhorik wrote:Ok, if TG settings are allowed, what is the canonical reference source for them? For at least some games, http://cubeman.org/tgts.txt and searching at http://www.twingalaxies.com give different settings for the MAME track.
If you think otherwise, send Mark a note for clarification.
It's ludicrous to have people re-record games going back to 1998. You can't set new standards across the board to satisfy all games from all eras. A potential rule could be something like games that came out in say 1986 or later (or maybe from 1990) must use default MAME settings, but you can't include the classic era. All of the INPs fall into one of the two situations, even a lot of the newer games. Too late, missed that chance a LONG time ago.
If the rule was changed, recordings made before the change could be "grandfathered", that is, excused from complying with the new rule, although I do NOT think that this would be the best course of action.It's ludicrous to have people re-record games going back to 1998.
Recordings made on settings harder than default would still be allowed. Only in the minority of cases where TG settings were used which are easier than default would any action be necessary. Such recordings could be adjusted, or if that's not possible, zeroed.
The price we would have to pay for having enacted a really, really, bad rule.
I find this preferable to continuing to allow settings which we have no control over, and which in some few cases actually contradict the main intent of the rule.
John Cunningham (JTC)
Re: Which TG settings
Actually, I would need to check this myself, but if the TG scoreboard is now showing the new, "live" updated MAME scores and settings, then what is on that is the current settings.***PL*** wrote:Both are the two valid sources for TG settings. If there is a discrepency between them, I would use Mark's.
If you think otherwise, send Mark a note for clarification.
Where there are discrepancies between that and what Mark shows on his outdated page(He stopped doing this about 1-1.5 years ago...), please just let me know. One of the first things I will be doing is when that new TG-MAME scoreboard/tracks are active on the scoreboard I will go through and essentially audit the tracks...check settings...check at least the top score replays etc. to make sure the proper settings were used.
There are a lot of scores using older TG settings that have since changed...or they just even used factory default settings....where TG settings might be tougher for that game.
An entire audit of that needs to be done IMHO....but can't be done until I know all is entered and it's ready to go. Last I heard this will happen soon..but I think there are still a few hundred scores yet to be entered and some tracks to be added.
A lot of "new" tracks for TG-MAME have been added...where for many settings are just factory/manufacturer settings(That's your "canonical" settings reference.) and not changed unless those settings are deemed "too easy" where more difficult settings would allow for better competition...and/or remove leeching tricks or bugs etc.
I know a few discrepanies already where the settings shown weren't used for any of the scores posted...like Nibbler...cuz at "hard" difficulty, there is a bug in the game that eventually leads to a "kill screen" where the game crashes. At "easy", that doesn't happen...which is what all the higher scores at least used. It's also the factory default.
I am planning(with the board's approval) to add a new Nibbler track... Nibbler-tournament that would be for 5 or 10 men only and be at "hard" difficulty. With that limited #men you can't reach the kill screen...which occurs around the 60-70 million mark(although I have a theory to avoid it with timely suicides...but have not tested it yet...as it takes around 3.5-4 hours of play to reach that mark.