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Buttermaker wrote:All right, time to revive this awesome thread. Here's how you record and play back SFA3 survival mode inps without NVRAM:

Download the file attached to this post and extract cheat.dat into your MAME dir.

Recording:

a) Start MAME with "mame.exe sfa3 -record sfa3 -cheat"

b) Press tab -> Cheat -> Enable/Disable a Cheat -> Survival Mode PL1 -> On

c) Play


Playback:

a) Start MAME with "mame.exe -pb sfa3 -cheat"

b) Press tab -> Cheat -> Enable/Disable a Cheat -> Survival Mode PL1 -> On (you can press p to pause MAME before doing this)

c) Watch


The file I attached also contains a short inp for you to see how easy it is to play it back.

I don't see any problem with having a split for survival mode on this game, the problem is how to get to it. We already voted down the idea of making an exception to the NVRAM rule. Now Buttermaker has found a way to do it using a cheat.dat. Problem is, Rule 2. states:

c) Cheats are not permitted. (although many powerups are)

We can, of course consider making an exception (for this purpose only) to Rule 2.c) for this game.

Discussion please.

where is the poll/discussion that disallowed the nvram exception? an nvram exception seems like a better allowance than allowing the -cheat to make recordings possible. as long as the same nvram is used for all survival mode recs and must be included in the zip file as sfa3*.nv etc.

Chad wrote:where is the poll/discussion that disallowed the nvram exception?

viewtopic.php?t=10891

Buttermaker wrote:The file I attached also contains a short inp for you to see how easy it is to play it back.

Here is that file: download.php?id=414

Now Buttermaker has found a way to do it using a cheat.dat. Problem is, Rule 2. states:

c) Cheats are not permitted. (although many powerups are)

This method does not apply a cheat which interferes with the actual gameplay. It just enables the survival mode. This rule doesn't even apply.

If you enable a cheat during a recording that inp will only play back correctly if the same cheat is enabled during playback. So there is no risk at all of somebody cheating with cheat.dat.

We already voted down the idea of making an exception to the NVRAM rule.

No, we didn't.

Buttermaker wrote: The poll doesn't contain clear information about what we actually want.
- The poll doesn't contain any information about how it's going to work.
- There is no link to the original discussion
- The original discussion obviously isn't finished.
- I never wanted to start a poll about this.

The poll doesn't count. This is not about a leeching technique or a scoring system. It's a fact that we have survival mode splits for Garou and Street Fighter Zero 2 Alpha. So SFA3 survival mode should be split as well.

yeah 13-4 i guess that was pretty convincing. i guess no one brought up the argument that if everyone was to use the same NVRAM file (checkable by zip crc), that would effectively be the same as using no nvram file and thus no advanatage can be gained... i didn't think of this before when i voted against the nvram file thing, unless i'm missing something else

Chad wrote:yeah 13-4 i guess that was pretty convincing. i guess no one brought up the argument that if everyone was to use the same NVRAM file (checkable by zip crc), that would effectively be the same as using no nvram file and thus no advanatage can be gained... i didn't think of this before when i voted against the nvram file thing, unless i'm missing something else

The poll doesn't contain clear information about what we actually want.
- The poll doesn't contain any information about how it's going to work.
- There is no link to the original discussion
- The original discussion obviously isn't finished.
- I never wanted to start a poll about this.

The poll doesn't count. This is not about a leeching technique or a scoring system. It's a fact that we have survival mode splits for Garou and Street Fighter Zero 2 Alpha. So SFA3 survival mode should be split as well.

Buttermaker wrote:This rule doesn't even apply.

Yes, it does.

Buttermaker wrote:

We already voted down the idea of making an exception to the NVRAM rule.

No, we didn't.

Yes, we did.

Buttermaker wrote: The poll doesn't contain clear information about what we actually want.

It was clear to me.

Buttermaker wrote:- The poll doesn't contain any information about how it's going to work.

There was more than enough information made available.

Buttermaker wrote:- There is no link to the original discussion

We found it.

Buttermaker wrote:- The original discussion obviously isn't finished.

And perhaps never will be.

Buttermaker wrote:- I never wanted to start a poll about this.

If you want an exception to a standing rule, you don't have a choice.

Buttermaker wrote:The poll doesn't count.

Yes, it did.

Buttermaker wrote:This is not about a leeching technique or a scoring system.

Wow, you finally got one right.

Buttermaker wrote:It's a fact that we have survival mode splits for Garou and Street Fighter Zero 2 Alpha. So SFA3 survival mode should be split as well

Weehawk wrote:I don't see any problem with having a split for survival mode on this game, the problem is how to get to it.

I thought you said you were ready.

Weehawk wrote:Yes, we did.

So you can start any kind of fucked up poll and the result counts?

It was clear to me.

AL wrote:If NVRAM cannot be used for Hyper Sports , well then it sure as hell shouldn't be allowed for Street Fighter 'Whatever' .

The TJT wrote:I would like to vote for no here(bitter nvram...clone-roms for different characters???)

TJT didn't vote but it wasn't clear to him what the poll was about. I'm sure there were more confused people but they voted.

There was more than enough information made available.

The information showed that there is no reason against it yet people still voted no. There was no need for a poll. In this case it's so obvious that there is no problem whatsoever with using NVRAM.

We found it.

Did everybody who voted read and understand it? Obviously not.

If you want an exception to a standing rule, you don't have a choice.

So we can never solve anything with a discussion only?

Yes, it did.

Uhm, so everybody can start mega-retarded polls and the results count?

Ugh, all this and LN2 hasn't even entered the thread...

Buttermaker wrote: Uhm, so everybody can start mega-retarded polls and the results count?

Is it better only few can start mega-retarded polls then

Ugh, all this and LN2 hasn't even entered the thread...

Cmon, stop putting Rick down.

Buttermaker wrote:

Weehawk wrote:Yes, we did.

So you can start any kind of fucked up poll and the result counts?

I think you are the only one that think that poll is fucked up.

Buttermaker wrote: TJT didn't vote but it wasn't clear to him what the poll was about. I'm sure there were more confused people but they voted.

I don´t think the majority that voted were confused about anything. They just didn´t like the idea. Is that so hard to understand?

Buttermaker wrote: The information showed that there is no reason against it yet people still voted no.

That´s your opinion but if you look at the results people doesn´t agree with you.

Buttermaker wrote: There was no need for a poll.

Says who? Are you the only one to decide that, and everyone else fails to see common sense?

Buttermaker wrote: In this case it's so obvious that there is no problem whatsoever with using NVRAM.

Once again that´s your opinion.

Buttermaker wrote: Did everybody who voted read and understand it? Obviously not.

Of course not. When people doesn´t agree with you they fail the see the truth right?

Buttermaker wrote: Uhm, so everybody can start mega-retarded polls and the results count?

Once again that´s how you see it. That doesn´t mean it is a fact.

You have made your points clear with good information etc, and there is no need to force people to think like you do. Accept the fact if people like/not like your suggestions.

Easy for you to say.

Buttermaker wrote:Easy for you to say.

It was harder than you think

Buttermaker wrote:So we can never solve anything with a discussion only?

Sure, but not when it means going against a "standing rule". That requires a 2/3 vote.

I might accept the argument that this is not a "cheat" as prohibited in Rule #2.c), even though it uses the cheat.dat file. What does everyone else think?

Otherwise I think we should focus the discussion on why (or why not) an exception should be made for this game and I will start:

I voted against the NVRAM exception when I was still fairly new at MARP because I did not feel that what was to be gained was worth the bother of making an exception to what I thought was an important rule. I will concede that I did not appreciate how important this issue is to some people. I have absolutely zero interest in this type of game, or this game in particular, but some people like them a lot. And this exception basically opens up a whole new game for them.

I will disagree with Chad in that I think this method of accessing survival mode is much simpler and easier than the NVRAM procedure. It involves a file and feature that almost anyone who has played with MAME much already has used. I would have no problem with voting for an exception to Rule #2.c) for this purpose, which is important to a good number of members.

Let's focus our discussion on these two points:

1) Whether this qualifies as a "cheat" as prohibited by Rule #2.c)

2) If so, should we make an exception?

To me, NVRAM is the only way. Mostly on a playbackability level, more than anything. To be sure of it working, the cheat MUST be enabled from the beginning. If you have to enable it through the menu, then it is quite possible for a loss of sync to occur - as you are changing RAM (or ROM) contents at a different point each time you run the game.

I certainly hope that you have extensively tested this method first.

mahlemiut wrote:To me, NVRAM is the only way. Mostly on a playbackability level, more than anything. To be sure of it working, the cheat MUST be enabled from the beginning. If you have to enable it through the menu, then it is quite possible for a loss of sync to occur - as you are changing RAM (or ROM) contents at a different point each time you run the game.

Not to mention that the cheat.dat gets a new version every..... well alright... not that bloody often at all... but then by allowing the .dat file to be used.. fine... but then we're going to have people saying "Allow the Galaga Speed Shot scores to exist and use cheat.dat to enable those too!" and another entire pandora's box.

While NVRam is not perfect... and could create equal problems with people forgetting to eradicate the dir after... I almost wonder if there will be a method that can be found that doesn't create problems in 1 way or another, short of F3 being recorded in inps.


Kelly