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There seems to be a flaw in the logic of the sports games rule changes.

Majority of timed games run on an 100pts for a win, +goals for, minus goals against logic. Single credit play.

Exceptions currently include football, basketball, baseball, and golf. These games run on a multiple credit, highest score paradigm.

Golf, however, is not a timed game, and all of the golf games (to my knowledge) can be completed on one credit witht the appropraite measure of skill (feel free to correct me if i'm in error). almost all golf games work off the internal logic that if you play par or better, you get to keep playing.

So why are we rewarding players who use more than one credit on these games by scoring them 200 minus final score? Shouldn't the logic be more along the lines of 100 minus final score if you complete the 18 holes, and if not then you score the number of holes completed (or reached, if preferred)?

This means, as a rough approximation, that a player who completes a course on one credit will score approx. 3x better than someone who would have completed a course on multiple credits, rather than potentially being beaten by someone who couldn't beat the game on one credit--which is one of the primary rules ofplay at MARP. I don't see why the golf games should have been switched in the first place--I can understand the logic behind the other sports--it's too close or not enough time or etc., but for golf, it just doesn't make any sense. You aren't being limited by a timer--only your poor play.

What do others think?

If a game can be completed on one credit, then I agree with QTQuazar. Move the golf games back to one credit.

zlk wrote:If a game can be completed on one credit, then I agree with QTQuazar. Move the golf games back to one credit.

I agree with QTQuasar too. Golf games aren't also difficult to finish with one credit than shooting games. And nobody want to make multiple credits in shooting

Francois

If you do a good score chances are that you completed the 18 holes with one credit,or I'm wrong?

Q.T.Quazar wrote:Golf, however, is not a timed game, and all of the golf games (to my knowledge) can be completed on one credit witht the appropraite measure of skill (feel free to correct me if i'm in error). almost all golf games work off the internal logic that if you play par or better, you get to keep playing.

Ok, this is to set the record straight.

Since I have the high score or are among the high scores for many golf games I'll comment here. Even with my high scores, most of those golf games took 3-6 credits at least to play the entire 18 holes.

For most golf games they are designed to take 3-6+ credits to complete 18 holes. Some are even worse. One I played took 10-12 credits to complete 18 holes cuz they only give you 1 hole and you must get a birdie to earn an extra hole....what a rip off...and the likelihood of getting birdies is quite low for that particular game.

As a matter of fact I don't think any of my golf scores were accomplished on only 1 credit. I do remember doing one on 2 credits though...but I had a hole-in-one that awarded me 6 extra holes which allowed for that. To do that with most golf games means shooting 16-under-par or better....which no one has done....or getting a couple of big shot hole-outs like a couple hole-in-ones.

So why are we rewarding players who use more than one credit on these games by scoring them 200 minus final score?

I do somewhat agree the scoring system used is flawed...cuz someone that shoots a 70 gets 130 for a score while someone that shoots an awesome 60 gets 140 points...so the "2nd" place guy with 130 would still earn a lot of MARP leaderboard points. The difference in "score" should perhaps be based on strokes under par....instead of where 1 stroke==1 point in score.

So perhaps 180 points just for completing it...then add 10 points to the score per stroke under par....subtract 10 points for each stroke over par.

This makes that above 70 for a par 72 course score 200 points while the person who shot a 60 scores 300 points. That's a more fair difference in scoring. You could even extend this more so score differences from those strokes are even farther apart. if someone shoots an 80 that's 8 over par so they would only score 100 points.

Either way, I think allowing all the credits necessary to complete the game is fine cuz no one has ever completed one on 1 credit. Actually someone maybe has, but it really requires some luck like a hole-in-one that awards several holes.

rather than potentially being beaten by someone who couldn't beat the game on one credit--which is one of the primary rules ofplay at MARP.

This tells me you don't understand it much at all. It's extremely unlikely someone would play 18 holes on less credits and not have a lower stroke score..thus higher MARP score. using your scenario of 1 credit only it's VERY likely a so-so player could get a hole-in-one on 1 hole then get many extra holes awarded while better players don't get that luck of a hole-in-one.

I don't see why the golf games should have been switched in the first place

cuz for many of them even if you are a good player you aren't going to play more than 5-6 holes on 1 credit. For some it's unlikely you will play more than 2-3 holes on 1 credit unless you get lucky and hole-out an approach shot. Anyone can play a golf game over and over and over again and get that lucky hole-in-one that would award 3-6 extra holes....then bogey or worse all the other holes they play...while someone else pars every hole yet their game is over after 2 holes.

That certainly isn't a fair test of skill for the game at all when you make it that short and based on luck of just holing out a long shot. When you have to play the entire 18 holes it's more of a test. Plus with many of these games the front 9 is quite easy compared to the back 9. The back 9 for many games has some ridiculous holes where even a great player will be happy with a par or even a bogey on the hole.

I hope that explains it enough.

I won't argue with any of what you've said, Rick. But it still doesn't change anything. The sports games were ostensibly changed because of scoring tightness and the fact that it was simply *impossible* to score any more on them than could be done in the 3 minutes or etc. etc. among other things.

This is not the case with golf games. MARP has always favored skill over completion, and the golf games can be completed using only one credit. To say that it's "too difficult" should be a rallying cry to the game, not an excuse for pumping in more quarters.

Q.T.Quazar wrote:This is not the case with golf games. MARP has always favored skill over completion, and the golf games can be completed using only one credit. To say that it's "too difficult" should be a rallying cry to the game, not an excuse for pumping in more quarters.

you obviously didn't read my above post very thoroughly.

It is NOT possible to play those golf games on 1 credit. For many you can't even do it on 2-3 credits. The best player on those games in the world wouldn't be able to do it on 1 credit. To do that you need to birdie 16 of the 18 holes...or get a few eagles or a hole-in-one to help. No one has posted anything similar to a 16-under-par score. 13-under-par is the lowest I have seen for any of them and that took 3 credits to complete.

using your method a below average player could get LUCKY and get a hole-in-one on let's say the 2nd or 3rd hole which for most of the golf games gives a huge award for extra holes....6 is typical. So that so-so player would get to play out 8 holes..even if they got bogies or worse on all the other 7 holes.

Now take a player that gets 2 birdies and 2 pars in 4 holes...their game is over. Their score would be less than the lesser skilled player that just happened to get a hole-in-one even though they are better than that other player. You also make it where you just play the game over and over and over and over again until you do happen to get that lucky hole-in-one etc.

That isn't skill based at all.

The best way to test skill of the golf games is with an entire 18 hole round...cuz the back 9 has much more difficult holes for many of the games versus the front 9...so if you are only playing half the front 9...what are you really testing? You don't get to test other parts of skill that are needed to score well on some holes on the back 9.

I have had games among those I uploaded here where I was for example 12-under-par through 15 holes....then managed to go 4-over-par those last few holes to finish at 8-under.

BTW 12-under-par for 15 holes can't be done on 1 credit unless I happened to have a hole-in-one in that mix...or a few eagles.

If the top scores were done on 1 credit then I would tend to agree with you....but NO ONE has done it on 1 credit so I don't see how you can just state that you can. Sure, it's theoretically possible...but extremely unlikely...and involves more luck than skill to accomplish.

you obviously didn't read my above post very thoroughly.

It is NOT possible to play those golf games on 1 credit.

first off, don't insult me. i read through every post carefully. carefully enough to realize that you still haven't quoted BY NAME *WHICH* golf game(s) you continually refer to as 'impossible', and upon which you have so far based your ENTIRE argument for maintaining the current scoring system. The ones I have played--NeoTurfMasters (+splits), Fighting Golf (and clones), Birdie King, Birdie King 2, Major Title, Major Title 2 and mini-golf, are all finishable on one credit.

Second, your logic for the back 9, while appealing, is unsound.

using your method a below average player could get LUCKY and get a hole-in-one on let's say the 2nd or 3rd hole which for most of the golf games gives a huge award for extra holes....6 is typical. So that so-so player would get to play out 8 holes..even if they got bogies or worse on all the other 7 holes.

Now take a player that gets 2 birdies and 2 pars in 4 holes...their game is over. Their score would be less than the lesser skilled player that just happened to get a hole-in-one even though they are better than that other player. You also make it where you just play the game over and over and over and over again until you do happen to get that lucky hole-in-one etc.

If this is a problem on the games you have referred to, then it is simple enough to change the scoring system on these games so that players cannot fluke off. But to counter argue, what about a player who gets two hole-in-ones and bogeys the rest? MARP does not necessarily reward consistent play, nor does it allow you to add credits so that you can play the most difficult parts--you have to get there first. If you don't make it to the 'harder' fifth level of Venture, you don't get to see the 'harder' fifth level of Venture.

But again, we are arguing about one game out of all the golf games, which would be easy enough to design separate special rules for. A good player, such as yourself, stands only to benefit form the rules changes on the rest of the golf games, which can (and several have) be finishd on one credit.

I suspect a former Editor with a taste for golf games slipped this change in in the first place, as all of the original debates for sports changes were only baseball and football. But I have not followed the message board all that closely for a while.

Anyway, Rick, I'm not trying to start a fight or cut down your games. You've proven your skill, and I don't think, with the exception of the unnamed games, you stand to lose anything from this change.

If you'd like to state which games cannot be finished on one credit in your next post, it would help this argument considerably, since you're the one with experience on them.

Q.T.Quazar wrote:first off, don't insult me.

Where did I insult you? I said no one among all of the high scores for all golf games here has done it on 1 credit yet you turn around and state you can play it on 1 credit like it's fairly trivial.

carefully enough to realize that you still haven't quoted BY NAME *WHICH* golf game(s) you continually refer to as 'impossible', and upon which you have so far based your ENTIRE argument for maintaining the current scoring system. The ones I have played--NeoTurfMasters (+splits), Fighting Golf (and clones), Birdie King, Birdie King 2, Major Title, Major Title 2 and mini-golf, are all finishable on one credit.

Yep, I was including all of those at least. Sure, it's theoretically possible to accomplish....but NO ONE has done it. There are certain holes in each of the courses that regardless of your skill level you likely aren't going to birdie...which is what you need to do essentially every hole to earn an extra hole.

Second, your logic for the back 9, while appealing, is unsound.

Well, you will see it for yourself once you get into playing them more. Not all of them are like this, but ones like Majtitle are. I had games on that were I got 7 or 8 birdies on the front 9 then managed to only shoot even par or worse on the back 9. I'm sorry but I think it's clear cut the back 9 is harder when you have several cases where you shot 6+ strokes worse on the back 9 than you do on the front 9.

Hole #17 is simply a ridiculous hole. unless you get LUCKY and get it downwind, you can't even reach the green in 3 strokes. Once I had a 15m wind against me for that hole and I couldn't even get to the green in 4 shots. It was playing more like a par 7 than a par 5. That has nothing to do with skill. It's just a very difficult hole. You can only hit the ball so far.

If this is a problem on the games you have referred to, then it is simple enough to change the scoring system on these games so that players cannot fluke off.

I already stated above although I like the fact all 18 holes are played out on "most". Note the Birdie King 2 one isn't... I think that's only because continues aren't allowed using default mame settings for that game. However, I did agree with you that the scoring system in place where 1 stroke==1 point in score is flawed cuz then for MARP points it makes the difference between an average round and an awesome round not very significant...when it should be significant.

But to counter argue, what about a player who gets two hole-in-ones and bogeys the rest?

How is that coutner-arguing? That's using the same scenario I just said...but you are just using 2 hole-in-ones as an example. MARP used to have scoring on those golf games where you get 10 points per hole then a point added or subtracted for your score relative to par for each hole. This means someone that gets that hole-in-one and gets awarded 6 holes for it automatically is getting 50-60+ more points versus someone that puts their tee shot on the green and birdies the hole.

Do you want to reduce the play into just having to play it over and over and over again until you finally get a hole-in-one on that first par 3 hole?

MARP does not necessarily reward consistent play, nor does it allow you to add credits so that you can play the most difficult parts--you have to get there first. If you don't make it to the 'harder' fifth level of Venture, you don't get to see the 'harder' fifth level of Venture.

Man, what a poor comparison this is.

We are talking about golf only here.

But again, we are arguing about one game out of all the golf games,

We are? All I stated above was for almost ALL of the golf games....not any particular one. Birdie King 2 is the only one that's different cuz it doesn't allow continues to buy in more holes. I wish for that one they would just change the dip switch settings then to start out with a lot more holes to play. MARP could have chosen to do that with many of the golf games so you at least play 9 holes on 1 credit..and very good players would likely get all 18 done on 1 credit. That wasn't what MARP decided though. This was before I was a member so I wasn't any part of those special rules.

A good player, such as yourself, stands only to benefit form the rules changes on the rest of the golf games, which can (and several have) be finishd on one credit.

I really wouldn't "benefit" from it. Given I already am earning 100 points for 1st place from current scoring, any other scoring would still result in being 1st place...so no gain. I would likely lose from many 2nds and 3rds I have though. Since you say "and several have" played all 18 holes on 1 credit...show me examples!!! From my experiences the only one that maybe is on 1 credit was that 13-under-par round for that 1 golf game(would need to find it again..but was a 13-under 59). Even then for that to be 1 credit he would have needed to get a hole-in-one or at least 3 eagles in that round to make it through 18 holes.

Anyway, Rick, I'm not trying to start a fight or cut down your games. You've proven your skill, and I don't think, with the exception of the unnamed games, you stand to lose anything from this change.

First, I am not fighting with you at all. This is a discussion. I just know if you did what you suggested above which is essentailly reverting to the older rules for golf games, that the high scores would likely be those that got a hole-in-one so got to play more holes versus someone that just got a few birdies and a few pars. I agreed with you on one aspect in that how a 70 is scored versus a 65 versus a 59 is flawed...cuz there is a huge difference in those stroke scores on a golf perspective but very little difference in MARP score from that. I showed a way to make that difference at least a little larger....but still think regardless what scoring system is used to be allowed to play all 18 holes is good.

Aren't there a few of those basketball games where they actually allow you to continue to complete the game or use special dip switch settings so you can? I haven't played any of those so sorry if that's incorrect...but do know there are other sports with similar cases to the golf games.

If you'd like to state which games cannot be finished on one credit in your next post, it would help this argument considerably, since you're the one with experience on them.

As I said in my first post above, I have NEVER completed any of those golf games on 1 credit....never...not for any of the ones I submitted and not for any I played and wasn't recording. I am only referring to those that have special rules to allow you to play 18 holes. There are a few golf games where you can go 18 holes and beyond on 1 credit. Those don't have any special rules to allow inserting more credits...but just how to score it.

I have had a couple where I finished it on the 2nd credit though...cuz I had a few eagles or a hole-in-one to assist that. All other games took me at least 3 credits to complete.

if you think playing a 5 minute game over 4-5 holes is a better judge of skill versus playing an entire 18 holes so be it. That's your opinion. I think strokes for entire 18 hole rounds are a much better test cuz if you only have a handful of holes anyone can get a bit of luck with a holeout or 2 to shoot really low....but won't have the luck to have that occur over an entire 18 holes....especially the way some of those holes on the back 9 of several of the games are.

LN2 wrote:[It is NOT possible to play those golf games on 1 credit. For many you can't even do it on 2-3 credits. The best player on those games in the world wouldn't be able to do it on 1 credit. To do that you need to birdie 16 of the 18 holes...or get a few eagles or a hole-in-one to help. No one has posted anything similar to a 16-under-par score. 13-under-par is the lowest I have seen for any of them and that took 3 credits to complete..

Sorry Rick. I seen in arcade some guys finsihed Major Title in 1 credit. It's possible for some of golf games, maybe not for all. But it's like many shooting games. For me, it's not possible to complete 2 loops for finish many of them and many japanese players success it though.

Francois

I like to play all holes in the golf games, but I have to agree with Q.T. on this one when it comes to submitting scores to MARP.

Basically because for me the "one game, one credit"-rule is what MARP is all about.

I like to paint a picture in my mind where I am walking in the middle of the desert with only a quarter in my pocket. Suddenly when I round a dune of sand there is a brand new cabinet. It has never been turned on before. I flick the switch, insert my quarter and play the game.

When I'm done, I send the cabinet to MARP and follow the extension cord to civilization.

What could be argued against that when it comes to golf games compared to most shooters, for example, is that there is an upper limit to how many credits you need to finish the game. You never need more than 18 credits to finish a golf game, but I couldn't finish most shooters with a hundred credits in my pocket.

But I still have to go with the one game, one credit-philosophy.

Just my 25c.

Abbe wrote:I like to play all holes in the golf games, but I have to agree with Q.T. on this one when it comes to submitting scores to MARP.

I almost think if a more fair weighting scoring system of that was done so a 59 gets far more points than even a 65 then Q.T. wouldn't mind the fact you play all 18 holes.

I totally agree with him on that angle. The scoring for a 59 vs 65 vs 70 is too close and not fair versus the difficulty of scoring a 59 vcs a 65 vs a 70.

it would be more fair actually to just have it relative to par. A 59 is 13 under par...so perhaps 130 points. A 65 is 7-under..so 70 points. 70 is 2-under par so only 20 points. Anything over par gets ZERO....although that 1 ridiculous and crappy golf game is so bad it's hard to get pars on any of the holes....forget birdies. hehe Those Crown Golf games.

That seems weighted much better than the current system where those 3 would have for MARP scores 141, 135, and 130. Shooting a 70 isn't 90% of what shooting a 59 is.

However, I wouldn't want the scoring to be based on #holes completed either cuz then someone will get lucky and get a hole-in-one or big holeouts for eagles on a par4 etc. to play more holes. Also the exact order you get your birdies in then matters. for example, 2 players... Player A plays the front 9 and birdies the first 4 holes...then pars the next 5. Now player B pars the first 3 holes, birdies the next 4, then pars the last 2.

If you shorten that to only 1 credit, player A gets 6 holes played. Player B gets only 2 holes played...even though they both shot -4 for 9 holes.

Do you want a separation of 2 holes played vs 6 holes played just because you didn't come right out making a lot of birdies...but can make them later in the round?

That's more luck as well...luck with pin placements, wind etc.

If these games weren't such quarter eaters where you actually start with 6+ holes to play on 1 credit, then fine. However, when most of them only award 2 holes to start and you must make birdies or better to earn more holes...that's not enough.

I think the current special rules were adopted cuz they "work" for all of the golf games that need the special rules. If they go with something else then you need special rules that are different for many of the games. That makes it a little more confusing. For many you likely would then want different dip switch settings so you start with more holes and perhaps earn 2 holes per birdie instead of just 1 etc.

Think about bowling...what would you do if a bowling game had it where you only bowl 2 frames and if you didn't get a strike in either of those frames your game is over? ...and you need a strike to earn bowling another frame? Yes, that sounds crazy...and that's analogous to playing only 2-3 holes of golf. Anyone can get lucky and string a few strikes together or a couple birdies...but how can they fair over an entire 18 holes or 10 frames in bowling?

I have seen a bowler with only a 90 average start a game with 6 strikes in a row....but then not get a mark the last 6 frames...and then bowl sub-100 the next 2 games.

I´m for the one credit rule in general. I don´t have the knowledge that QT and Rick has about golf games though.

Nice discussion to read though. Just don´t fight over it guys

Major Title 1 is definitely possible to finish on one credit , I've done it a few times back in the arcades , best score -20 . I have seen -21 strokes .
It's hard , but not impossible .


Just my 20 cent...


AL

Then I have to agree with Rick, just for not to leave him alone in this debate

A round of golf has 18 holes. Why not play full round.
Birdie system that these games have is just to make money for arcade owners ie too hard difficulty settings.

And...It would be unfair to change Marp rules now back...

I don't mind how many "credits" are used, infact there really is played one round of golf. Some games can have dip switch settings to enable easier progress through full 18 holes.

Don't go to the "1 credit 1 game" speculation again...before there was huge conversation/fight about it...and decision was to change default dipsw settings for playchoice 10 games, just an artificial way to go around a (bad) rule in that case.

Just my half €....wait, my Mame is at free play