Explained: MARP Rule 2c -- No Cheats

[***PL***]

From another recent thread...

You don't get it. Everything in gameplay is legal until a vote to ban the technique passes by 2/3.

This is what I and many other members don't understand. Look at rule 2c in the MARP rules. It suggests that all tricks that are equivalent to cheating(not playing the game under it's intended rules) are not allowed.

To clarify...

MARP General Rule 2c says: Cheats are not permitted. (although many powerups are)

The original intent of this rule is to disallow the use of the MAME Cheat Menu and any type of hack into the MAME emulator. It is a general rule and doesn't mention specific games or techniques. There is no suggestion here that tricks and cheating are the same. If anything, it could be inferred that obvious cheats outside of using cheat.dat are unacceptable. (Do I sound like a lawyer? -- well I'm not!)

That said, if someone wants to introduce a trick, the uploader is the only one at risk of ultimately getting his INP DQ'ed. But this could only happen after a vote takes place and the trick is banned as it is not a general cheat covered by Rule 2c.

So if anyone believes a specific technique is suspect, a MARP vote will be necessary to ultimately ban the cheat/trick. This is how it has always worked since the beginning.

[The TJT]

You did not mention 2/3 vote rule, this has not been the case from the beginning. Either did you not take a stand if the rule is right or wrong. You also did not say how this rule was formed in first place, and what was the idea behind this rule. Also there has to be noted that sometimes a difference between a cheat and trick seems not to be so obvious, which makes the 2/3 rule very questionable.

I suppose this is the thing we are talking about anyway, not what rule 2c means or not.

Kindly,

TJT

[LN2]

actually, why don't for polls for some tricks you have a poll asking if you think this trick or that trick violates rule 2c of MARP and is considered cheating? That would be a lot more clear.

Cheating meaning not playing the game by the rules that come with the game....but playing it by other rules instead.

That's essentially what any cheat.dat stuff allows...plus you yourself said some cheat/tricks outside of the cheat.dat would also fall under rule 2c.

What that does is change the burden from 66% having to ban the trick to 66% saying, "No, it doesn't violate rule 2c." thus is allowed.

That the whole point I and several others have made. Currently if 35% say a trick is fine that's enough to allow it. Since when is 35% enough to pass a special exception to rule 2c?

so...for that current poll for the Cameltry "trick"...are you saying if only 35% approve of the trick then it's allowed even though it seems that "yes" vote would be what needs to be 66%...cuz of rule 2c.

Allowing that trick would be a "special rule" to add saying cheating at the game in this manner is actually allowed....so 66% should be required for that...not only 35%.

Just food for thought there... It's like saying you are presumed innocent and must be proven guilty or presumed guilty and must be proven innocent. Those are 2 entirely different things.

[***PL***]

You did not mention 2/3 vote rule, this has not been the case from the beginning. Either did you not take a stand if the rule is right or wrong. You also did not say how this rule was formed in first place, and what was the idea behind this rule. Also there has to be noted that sometimes a difference between a cheat and trick seems not to be so obvious, which makes the 2/3 rule very questionable.

I suppose this is the thing we are talking about anyway, not what rule 2c means or not.

Kindly,

TJT

TJT,
The 2/3 vote rule has to do with Public Polls and voting and does apply to banned techniques. 2/3 vote is required for passage (ban).

Back in the old days, c. 1999-2000, a 7/11 public vote majority was required to ban (64%), so surprisingly yes it was quite similiar to today...

[***PL***]

Just food for thought there... It's like saying you are presumed innocent and must be proven guilty or presumed guilty and must be proven innocent. Those are 2 entirely different things.

I can't determine what is a trick, cheat or a bug, nor should I alone. That is why it must be put to vote. To complicate matters you can't say all tricks should be allowed or banned. Same with cheats and bugs.

I never said these were all covered by Rule 2c -- my keyword was inferred, please reread!

If you think 34% is too easy to keep unwanted techniques around, then say so, and we'll see what the 7 editors think we should do.

[The TJT]

TJT,
The 2/3 vote rule has to do with Public Polls and voting and does apply to banned techniques. 2/3 vote is required for passage (ban).

Yes, and....?

So that is the rule. But we have been talking a lot if this rule, if it's right or wrong...If the purpose of the rule is understood in execution etc. I was hoping some input on this. Not to simply say what we all know and have been talking for days now

Tommi

[LN2]

I can't determine what is a trick, cheat or a bug, nor should I alone. That is why it must be put to vote.

I have no problem with that...and that it must be voted on. It's the burden of what percentage you need to approve or ban something that is very inconsistent at MARP. It seems if you word a poll question a bit differently you can totally change the requirement of 66% to make it happen to 35% to make it happen...simply by the wording of the poll. That shouldn't be possible...but it has happened in polls here.

If you think 34% is too easy to keep unwanted techniques around, then say so, and we'll see what the 7 editors think we should do.

Many of us have recently in these forums...but it has gone unnoticed until now. I do hope the editors can discuss this...and perhaps add some clarification to rule 2c by rewriting it on the rules web page then to mean mainly no use of cheat.dat or allowing cheats to be on for games except in special cases...like the pacman-fast/turbo games where you must have cheats on to allow the speedup dip switch to be set to play the game in turbo mode. I'm guessing no vote was needed for that...cuz playing it with the speedup is a separate way to play the game...thus essentially making it a different game..thus separate records. that could really be done with any game that has tricks that totally chnages how the game is played...like Outrun and Cameltry. Saying within rule 2c "cheating" doesn't address tricks in games would be enough of a clarification. Many feel any use of tricks(especially like those in recent Outrun and Cameltry) are cheats...cuz you are not playing by the game's rules. The trick is a loophole to not play the game by it's rules....so adding no tricks included in rule 2c's "cheating" would help.

As you said for some polls you can't really clearly tell if you are trying to ban a trick as a new special rule for a game or if you are trying to approve a special case to allow a cheat.

I think that's TJT's point that in cases where you can't clearly tell which vote result must get 66% majority that you should just allow a simple majority to decide it...51%.

[The TJT]

If you think 34% is too easy to keep unwanted techniques around, then say so, and we'll see what the 7 editors think we should do.

Didn't see this reply when writing last message, this somewhat covers your opinion on this. Anyway, either someone make a poll for 50-50 or 2/3
rule, or editors decide, there are ways. What are the editors opinions for this. 2/3 rule was presented here from editors at the first place, and I believe the purpose was to keep things ungchanged/to remove the poll chaos... . The base for the idea was USA constitution law or something like that
It should have been Finland!

I believe almost all would agree that things are not working right now

[Francois Daniel]

If you think 34% is too easy to keep unwanted techniques around, then say so, and we'll see what the 7 editors think we should do.

As Rick an Tommi, I think it would be better to have a simple majority 51% for bann tricks. Because the currant rule make a big advantage for all tricks.

So, it would be nice the 7 editors debate of this question

Francois

[QRS]

I fully agree. 50/50 sounds a lot better. In that case everything is open to a more 'fair' vote, and a trick will be allowed/not allowed due to the fact that more than half of the public voted on it. Not 1/3 or 2/3.

I think it is hard to set "all tricks allowed" or "no tricks allowed" as a default. A 50/50 is a much better choice for those kinds of polls.

I expect the editors take this under cosideration, cause it is quite an important question for all of us.

Just my opinion.

Cheers

[Novice]

If you think 34% is too easy to keep unwanted techniques around, then say so, and we'll see what the 7 editors think we should do.

As Rick an Tommi, I think it would be better to have a simple majority 51% for bann tricks. Because the currant rule make a big advantage for all tricks.
Francois

if you think so, then show me your trick.
it must have advantage.


Rick,Tommi and you and QRS. who is 5th and 6th men??
those are guys are men who just want to reject TTYF's play.
not more than it.

I think 75% or 80%, 95% is suitable but I accept current rule.
Your opinion is not ignored. :!:it is already amazing for me and too huge your advantage,francois.
the guys like you should accpet the rule and thanks for not recognized as "COMPLETELY WORTHLESS".

you have tooooo bigger power than your worth(to show trick,do trick, know trick, etc)
It is the democraty

[Francois Daniel]

If you think 34% is too easy to keep unwanted techniques around, then say so, and we'll see what the 7 editors think we should do.

As Rick an Tommi, I think it would be better to have a simple majority 51% for bann tricks. Because the currant rule make a big advantage for all tricks.
Francois

if you think so, then show me your trick.
it must have advantage.


Rick,Tommi and you and QRS. who is 5th and 6th men??
those are guys are men who just want to reject TTYF's play.
not more than it.

I think 75% or 80%, 95% is suitable for "current ban trick vote"
under current rule,your opinion is not ignored.
the guys like you should accpet the rule and thanks for not recognized as "COMPLETELY WORTHLESS".

you have tooooo bigger power than your ability now.
It is the democraty

You know what ? Before speak, think and use your mind.

Here is my trick

And its not a snap of your recording because I let the time running until O.



Francois

[Novice]

\If you think 34% is too easy to keep unwanted techniques around, then say so, and we'll see what the 7 editors think we should do.

Then I must say opposite opinion.
there are some games which has 3 or 4 same romset,to ban a new trick
makes very boring race. even if 40+% of people agree this tecnique,
all 3 record will turn to void.
only 60% can reject all 3 plays.


it seemed unfair also.
I think ....
To ban the trick completely require 75% of "ban"voter and all 7 editors admit is as unfair. (completely unfair will reject.not relate difficulty)
ban the trick except 1 original version if 26% of voter or 1 deitor admit.
and accept the trick,when "admit" get 50% of voter.


at the game which only 1 version, 34/66 is line. it is OK for me.

[Francois Daniel]

[Rick,Tommi and you and QRS. who is 5th and 6th men??
those are guys are men who just want to reject TTYF's play.
not more than it.

1.I had nothing against you until you insult me.
2. Even ater all this, I don't want to reject you and your great score on shooting gam (its an example).
3. Why you made QRS with me and Rick ? Always he defend you, always he had be nice with you. He had'nt the same opinion than you but, always he respect you. So, please, respect him also in return.

I think 75% or 80%, 95% is suitable but I accept current rule.
Your opinion is not ignored. :!:it is already amazing for me and too huge your advantage,francois.
the guys like you should accpet the rule and thanks for not recognized as "COMPLETELY WORTHLESS".

Why ? Because you think I'm never able to make your trick ?
Let me laugh

[
you have tooooo bigger power than your worth(to show trick,do trick, know trick, etc)
It is the democraty

Again



For the trick, after succes 4 time it in 15 minutes, here what I think of it :

It's a cool trick. I think I'd use it sometime for fun if I known it when I play in arcade. But in France, never the owner don't accept to change the spinner for make tricks, I guess.

This trick is not so easy to make, and made it without spent time in any try is a miracle.

BUT, I think it's not a legal trick. Its a fun trick and I thank you to show us it, but never I think it must be legal in marp.

Also, we must use Warp (I use your own word) to reach the spot betwin bumper and wall

Francois

PS : I'm sorry but I think I'm a little better than you think.

[Novice]

You know what ? Before speak, think and use your mind.

Here is my trick

And its not a snap of your recording because I let the time running until O.



Francois

MARP does not admit "continue"
your time is 1'20"1.
do you know the fact ?
if you continue game,you will get 80 seconds.
this screen says you crush 2 [+3 blocks] and 2 [-3 block].
you just continue and continue, rolling the screen faster. and penetrate there in lucky.not more than it.

your "trick" must be not using the trick "already ban".
continue is not good idea.you should show your original trick.