forums.marpirc.net

Defcon=7.

Everyone can make the poll to ban the trick
if one think "cheap" ,"seemed poor","I hate uploader " with present rule.
Most of tricks new for one are tend to seemed eccentrick and cheap one.
but if you do it by oneself,something new may find out.
at robocop, all top players uses bug bonus. but they makes is as one of the "rule" not bug.
and no one says "that trick is bug" and "must ban it" etc..
stand on bug and new very nice competition creates.

I want to say is ,
To make a rule to ban unseen trick,Qualification should be required
from the person whom it want to make new rule.
if one can success the trick,his thinking may change.

BAN poll was standable only by who has "success the trick imp".

under current rule,most of players never want to upload the inp of unseen high-skill trick.
Fearing the replay was crushed by the one-sided prejudice.

at least , under current rule, I NEVER upload the inp which show unseen tricks.
and most of players of "quality side" also think so ,I certain.
It makes MARP as very boring place.


P.S.
of course, uploader who uses unseen trick must account for enough informations.
if not, new record should obey current rule.


I wish my poor english is enough to understand what I want to say....

Everyone can make the poll to ban the trick
if one think "cheap" ,"seemed poor","I hate uploader " with present rule.
Most of tricks new for one are tend to seemed eccentrick and cheap one.
but if you do it by oneself,something new may find out.
at robocop, all top players uses bug bonus. but they makes is as one of the "rule" not bug.
and no one says "that trick is bug" and "must ban it" etc..
stand on bug and new very nice competition creates.

First of all, I don't know Robocop, so I will not attempt to comment on that bug at this time.

This depends entirely on how the game is played. For example, in many games, the bugs that are present do not affect the general way the game is played.

I agree that many tricks do seem 'cheap' if viewed from the first time but can enhance the gameplay. For example, take my Astro Fighter recording - it shows an exploit whereby the fuel ship can yield 10,000 points instead of the usual 900/300. I have no idea how I achieved this. If someone does figure out how this is achieved, then it may be available on every fuel ship. There is no difference in the basic concept of the game - shoot the aliens & avoid their shots. I believe the bonus is akin to the 23+15 300 point ships in Space Invaders.

However, there are some bugs / tricks which completely alter the basic formula that makes the game. These, in my opinion, should not be allowed. For example (OK, it's not arcade, but bare with me), on the many platforms is a game called Elite. In Elite you gain ranks by doing deeds & generally fighting people (it's a space voyaging game). On the ZX Spectrum version, I can get to Elite status in two different ways: first, by playing the game & showing my skill; second, by loading the game & saving it before starting - I don't even need to begin playing before I get to Elite status, there is no skill at that and would be worthy of a ban.

Regardless of the trick, anyone who has taken the opportunity to understand a trick / bug should be elligible to open discussion on the merits of that trick or bug that may lead to a ban on the trick. Also, anyone who does not understand a trick or bug should be able to make requests for others to explain the merits of it that may lead to a ban.

Who starts the discussion does not matter. What does matter is that the merits of the trick / bug are discussed before any ban is put in place.

BAN poll was standable only by who has "success the trick imp".

As explained further I have exploited something in Astro Fighter. I have achieved this twice - neither time do I know *how* I achieved it. No one else that I am aware of has achieved this (please speak up - I have asked before, but with no answer - start a new thread if you do). I cannot explain the trick.

If someone can point out why the 10k bonus appears & makes a full account of it's merits I can make a judgement call on how it affects the game. Until then I cannot and I believe I should not, but then neither should anyone else, in my opinion.

However, should someone figure out how this 10k bonus appears by any means (watching my inp, dissasembling the roms, or whatever) and can explain why this changes the merits of the game, then they should not be banned from pointing this out because they cannot perform it themselves!

Other people who take the time to understand the trick can formulate an objective agreement and can express their views. They do not need to be able to replicate the trick in order to understand it.

under current rule,most of players never want to upload the inp of unseen high-skill trick.
Fearing the replay was crushed by the one-sided prejudice.

Under the current rules anyone who believes they may be subjected to this 'prejudice' can e-mail the editors with the trick *for the tricks page*.

at least , under current rule, I NEVER upload the inp which show unseen tricks.
and most of players of "quality side" also think so ,I certain.
It makes MARP as very boring place.

That is an unfortunate view of the situation which shows a rather blinkered approach. There is a tricks page and any new submissions will likely generate a lot of discussion.

If you submit to the tricks page & then bring the discussion of the trick onto the forums, they may get accepted - you never know!

Please understand that I have endeavoured to give you examples based on my own knowledge & not to 'jump on the band wagon' of previous discussions.

I believe all polls should be started only when an amount of discussion has been able to find what suitable choices there should be in the poll.

[Edit:]
I believe that the following are more gramatical versions of what your poll choices are:

If enough informations supply,poll was standable only by who can do it.

Only individuals that are able to exploit / perform a given trick / ban may be elligible to vote.

Everyone can make new rule.(only uploader has risk and worthless effort)

Anyone may vote on polls involving the banning of a particular trick or bug. The uploader takes the risk of the score being DQ'd because they did not have the foresight to upload as a trick / bug then give example explanation and await sufficient discussion time to weigh the merits of the trick / bug.

I assume current rule is anyone can make a poll about a trick. I'm right ?

In this case does it means that 66% should be reached by your 1st choice for changing the rule ?

Barthax wrote: Only individuals that are able to exploit / perform a given trick / ban may be elligible to vote.

That's the way I understood Hisa words. Is it correct Hisa ?

Defcon=7

Barthax wrote:BTW: I don't understand the choices of your poll?

I believe all polls should be started only when an amount of discussion has been able to find what suitable choices there should be in the poll. So I will not be voting on this poll unless this thread goes significantly further by way of explanation and discussion.

I experinced 2 big discussion(if it is enough worth to be called).
and reached an answer.

1 try is stronger than 1000 see.
1 do is stronger than 1000 try.
discussion creates nothing for the never try guys.
Even if supply informations, discussion is not success.

I account for all factors at each thread. but opposite man(want to defend current top scores)
just told their opinion from first to end. nothing changes.
I(and most of reader) do not want to hear their opinion at all.
It is well known among everyone. and well known before discussion.

I can not discussion with the man who can not understand the difference between "use the rule of hit-chacker" and "255 Mr.do bug".
"If he beleave it is poor, so do it by himself to prove how much such bug is poor."
Is it very LOGICAL opinion is not it??
I can not understand why only uploader who show unseen tricks become victim.
if reject the recording by no-effort guys opinion, that man never try to make unseen trick.
is it very good for MARP??
If they try to do the trick instead of scream, their opinion may change.
and find how much it is difficult.
if they success at once, they may find how much sweet spot with finish is great acheavement.
but they avoid such effort.
and try to ban MY recording from start to end.

#ban this trick EQUAL bash TTYF. not more than and not less than.
#In fact,2000+ viewer visit that discussion, but NO ONE prove the cheapness by one's skill.

1000000 discuss is worthless here.
only 1 action is much more necessary.
The trick no one mimic even if you know how ti it, IS the most important and worthy tecnique.
anysome, I NEVER upload unseen tricks.of course NEVER account for it.

piot wrote:

Barthax wrote: Only individuals that are able to exploit / perform a given trick / ban may be elligible to vote.

That's the way I understood Hisa words. Is it correct Hisa ?

Yes.
Current rule is free to make any poll.
so I require 2/3 of voting.

If this opinion will reject, I will never show Marpers unseen skill/trick and never supply informations.
current system kill the insentive to show new skill.
not only for me. MARP will get very few unseen recordings.

I will find another method to enjoy here.not more than it. not less than it.

I will not vote for this poll above because honestly I have no idea what it really states. I realize English isn't a strong language for you but you could have gotten someone else at MARP to help you say what you want to say for this poll.

Novice wrote: Everyone can make the poll to ban the trick

I always felt not just anyone could start a poll anyway..that an editor should be the one to decide to do a poll to decide on a special rule after seeing discussions about it in the forums.

Because of the objective MARP has, no tricks should be allowed by default so then polls would be needed to see if a certain trick would be allowed....instead of the backwards way it currently is.

Then you could have a poll to try and get each trick allowed and a few might even pass...then special rules saying that trick was allowed would be put there. This way other players become informed about the trick and how it affects the play of the game and the score of the game. Currently someone uploads an inp using a trick and no one even knows about it unless the confirmer objects to the inp when viewing it to confirm the score so posts about it at the forums.

at robocop, all top players uses bug bonus. but they makes is as one of the "rule" not bug.
and no one says "that trick is bug" and "must ban it" etc..
stand on bug and new very nice competition creates.

Well, I'm not very familiar with that game but it sounds like the type of bug where you still play the game as you normally would...you can just get some easy extra bonus points by doing something. It's not even close to being the same level of bug that totally changes how the game is played like Outrun and Cameltry.

It makes MARP as very boring place.

Why are you still participating at MARP if you think it's boring? It's had the same attitude toward special rules and tricks etc. for quite a while now.

Just go submit your scores and inps that use tricks to Gamest or elsewhere then or something where anything does go there. MARP obviously doesn't want an anything goes policy...long before I joined here last summer even.

Novice wrote: #ban this trick EQUAL bash TTYF. not more than and not less than.

Do you really think that ? I'm not sure most of the players who disagreed with your last tricks on cameltry and/or outrun thought it was a way to bash you. I think most of them simply disagree with your point of view, that's all !

Concerning your "try it before judging it!". Well this can not be a rule for each trick. Some (tricks) are just a secret path and ok in this case, a try could be done. BUT when the trick is clearly outside of the normal way to play, try is not necessary.

Just to illustrate my words, I'll give you an example not really linked with video games but I think it's a good one.

When people first wrote laws in each contries they didn't have to kill someone before deciding if killing someone is legal or not.

I know this example is strong and I'm not compare killing someone with using a trick of course but it's just to show you that sometimes a try is not necessary to have an opinion (that is rigth) on a subject.

piot wrote:

Novice wrote: #ban this trick EQUAL bash TTYF. not more than and not less than.

Do you really think that ? I'm not sure most of the players who disagreed with your last tricks on cameltry and/or outrun thought it was a way to bash you. I think most of them simply disagree with your point of view, that's all !

This is the FACT. no other men damaged by the poll.
only 1 victim may damage.
It is the FACT.

In fact, either poll wins,commenters lose nothing.
only victim has risk. it is unfair.
no one want to be a victim in other words, marp will invite very few new tricks.
at least I will never.

Novice wrote:I experinced 2 big discussion(if it is enough worth to be called).
and reached an answer.

I am aware of the two huge recent discussions regarding both Outrun and Camel Try and understand why it leads you to making this post.

Novice wrote:1 try is stronger than 1000 see.
1 do is stronger than 1000 try.

I agree that practice makes undestanding perfect.

Novice wrote:discussion creates nothing for the never try guys.

I completely disagree. I understand that two nations have been in space. I understand that rocks have been brought back from the moon. I have not been in space. Does this mean that I do not have an opinion?

Understanding is the basis of laws in all countries. Politicians do not have to be stabbed or shot to understand that weapons can be lethal and should be controlled. The governing bodies require understanding of what is involved before attempting descisions. Why should it *not* be the basis here?

Discussion generates understanding, understanding leads to opinions. Unfortunately some people begin discussions with opinions already made.

Novice wrote:Even if supply informations, discussion is not success.

Yes - on two occasions. Both those occasions involved *very different* use of 'gameplay'. There is a connection why they both were heated discussions - they were not small tricks / bugs you were showing. The tricks were not easy to replicate, so your demand that people *try before cry* is ridiculous considering it took *you* 3 days to achieve the Camel Try recording. People just do not have that much time to devote!

Novice wrote:I account for all factors at each thread. but opposite man(want to defend current top scores)
just told their opinion from first to end. nothing changes.

Some people do get stuck in a rutt.

However, being such a stubborn sod yourself doesn't help either. (joke)

Novice wrote:I(and most of reader) do not want to hear their opinion at all. It is well known among everyone. and well known before discussion.

If they do not speak, we do not know their opinion. In some circumstances this is thankful, but it's rare.

Novice wrote:I can not discussion with the man who can not understand the difference between "use the rule of hit-chacker" and "255 Mr.do bug".

That is your opinion - if you do not wish to discuss something with someone that does not understand, then that *opinion* is understandable. The actions based on that opinion may not be.

Novice wrote:"If he beleave it is poor, so do it by himself to prove how much such bug is poor."
Is it very LOGICAL opinion is not it??

It is not a logical conclusion. There is no connection between ability and understanding.

I have almost no ability at Outrun or Camel Try. I do understand that what you achieved on those two recordings is remarkable. I do not believe the Camel Try recording was in the spirit of the game. The Out Run recording I am still unsure of. (Please can we stop any more discussions on the Out Run / Camel Try recordings - they have their own threads.)

Novice wrote:I can not understand why only uploader who show unseen tricks become victim.

Many people have uploaded tricks which have been allowed. Allowing the aliens to reach the bottom of the screen [Edit: in Space Invaders] before killing them is a trick - it is allowed. Some tricks are not.

Novice wrote:if reject the recording by no-effort guys opinion, that man never try to make unseen trick.

That is your opinion.

Novice wrote:is it very good for MARP??

Yes - because the discussion can be re-opened at any time. It is only at this time that the trick can / cannot be allowed.

Novice wrote:If they try to do the trick instead of scream, their opinion may change.
and find how much it is difficult.

I believe no-one has questioned the *difficulty* of the tricks.

Novice wrote:if they success at once, they may find how much sweet spot with finish is great acheavement.
but they avoid such effort.
and try to ban MY recording from start to end.

I very much doubt the recordings are attempted to be banned because it was you who recorded them.

As I said above the extent of the tricks / bugs concerned is what was attempt to be banned.

Novice wrote:#ban this trick EQUAL bash TTYF. not more than and not less than.

I am sorry you feel this way. It is not the view of myself, nor I believe of most people.

Novice wrote:#In fact,2000+ viewer visit that discussion, but NO ONE prove the cheapness by one's skill.

No-one questioned the *skill*. The ethics of the gameplay were questioned.

Novice wrote:1000000 discuss is worthless here.
only 1 action is much more necessary.
The trick no one mimic even if you know how ti it, IS the most important and worthy tecnique.
anysome, I NEVER upload unseen tricks.of course NEVER account for it.

Again, discussion based on understanding is necessary, not experience.

Novice wrote: only victim has risk. it is unfair.
no one want to be a victim in other words, marp will invite very few new tricks.
at least I will never.

The fact is you think you're a victim of all "attacks" and you have the feeling that those are against you personnaly but those are against the tricks. Whoever the one who do them the same discussion will be started.

We had a thread dealing with a special spot on Cameltry, you weren't the one who used that spot but the discussion was take not personnaly by the author of the trick (leech would be a better word) and all went better.

I think you have to make the difference between you and what you do. This could be usefull for U not only here but also in your "outside life".

Defcon= always 7 at here.

what did you felt that 2 big thread??

I realize,
"As for parallel line, to ahead 1000000 light-years still parallel line.never cross."

My opinion is "prove your word by your skill. I also want to know how much this trick is so cheap"
not change from first to end.
Their opinion is "I hate that trick(and TTYF)! LET US force it to DQ yeah!"
of course not change.
everything I can is account for the history and the knowledge,informations.
I can not do anything more than it. and it does not have powet to change them.

and become a victim. I never want to be it.

Novice wrote:Defcon= always 7 at here.

Keep it

I realize,
"As for parallel line, to ahead 1000000 light-years still parallel line.never cross."

And do you try to prove it ? no cause it's so true.

My opinion is "prove the trick by your skill. I will admit it is poor if you prove by your skill."

I think you're misunderstanding the meaning of "poor". It seems you take it as "easy" that isn't the right meaning (I haven't the feeling it is). "Poor" was just used for illustrating the trick should be disallowed that's all. Never it was a way to say you have no skill.

"I hate that trick(and TTYF)! LET US force it to DQ yeah!"

Maybe "I hate that trick" is correct, others words are just what you feel and clearly (for me) not what is the truth. Once again none of the words exhanged was directly and personnaly against U.

piot wrote:The fact is you think you're a victim of all "attacks" and you have the feeling that those are against you personnaly but those are against the tricks. Whoever the one who do them the same discussion will be started.

As for hunderds of recording uploader , ban 1 trick is not problem.
but generally speaking, unseen trick uploader makes 1 recording
after 500-1000 trial.
ban that 1 record after make it is fatal damage for one.

This poll is
"boot such type of player" or "not."