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Francois Daniel wrote:1. It's possible for one man who have several account to vote several times ? I hope no.

It sure is possible...as well as having friends just get accounts here also with no real plans to actually participate... or his JP-Gamest buddies can all come here and vote. We all know how Gamest feels. I just hope they aren't pushing that on MARP.

I certainly hope nothing like that is really happening but yes it certainly is possible.

2. Should be possible to vote if we just create an account and we not post any scores yet ?

That sounds like a good idea but not really possible at this time with the message boards being their own thing. All with message board accounts here can vote in a poll. MARP would need custom polls that are integrated with accounts so each account can be given permission by the editors or denied permission to vote by the editors based on whether they are active at MARP etc. and if they have done things in the past where they shouldn't be allowed to vote.

It seems to me poll results must be stored in a file/MySQL database cuz once you vote from your account for that poll you can't vote again..which is good..but also means my incorrect vote should be on record somewhere..so the mistake could just be erased so I can vote correctly.

Novice wrote:LN2 lost nothing even if which poll wins, but I may lost something.

I'm not sure how you figure that. I clearly stated what I have already lost from this. QRS and I were having an awesome high score competition. Perhaps you haven't noticed but neither one of us have played the game since you uploaded your 2.2 million inp(well, I briefly played to do the trick just to see how much skill vs luck was involved...definitely some of both...maybe tad more luck..).

We have lost the thrill and fun of that competition for the high scores cuz to do it now means just cheating at the game using the trick....not a competition of gaming skill at Cameltry anymore.

A different build of mame could allow that higher sensitivity which would again change how high you could score in Cameltry cuz you would be able to do this warp trick even easier if you could set sensitivity to "512" instead of "255". It seems at 255 it's barely possible....takes many attempts...not much room for error...luck involved. I'm guessing at even higher sensitivity there is a lot more room for error and the trick becomes fairly easy to do. Novice, you sort of stated this in a couple of your posts. MAME is max limited more than what custom controllers you put in arcade machines can be. BTW, just cuz you can put a different controller in the arcade game, doesn't make the trick just fine and dandy to do. You also said you haven't been able to make the steel ball warp. I briefly tried it and wasn't able to either. Given that ball has different code for treating wall interaction it very well might be where 255 sensitivity isn't high enough. Either way if you play the game as received without hacking it up you can't do the trick...end of story.

So even if the trick is allowed there is no standardization to it cuz it can vary based on mame versions or even your controller used.

BTW, half of my "noise" Novice is where I tell you things and it seems to not register with you...where you make demands again....and again..and again for proof etc....when you already know what the truth is and you are just stirring up trouble.

Let's stop talking about all this and just let the vote happen over the next 6 days ok? I'm done with Cameltry until this poll is done.

LN2 wrote: It sure is possible...as well as having friends just get accounts here also with no real plans to actually participate... or his JP-Gamest buddies can all come here and vote. We all know how Gamest feels. I just hope they aren't pushing that on MARP.

Rick, I just would like re-establish the things for Gamest Scores. I guess you've not seen this great magazin yet. I possess over 80 of them. So I know how work the score pages. An amount of game center (approximately 100) send to the mag scores who are made in the 15 last days. Some of them beat the gamests records or approach them. But there was many game centers who have normal scores. So, it's not the fault of Gamest. They give only information of the scores made in game centers. The rest of the mag consist of game testing and many (70% of the mag) interresting pages of how play games, where is the hidden items, bonus, how make combos in fighting games, etc. Often its for the most skilled players. And I never seen in Gamest tricks who aren't in the Spirit of the Game (and my friends who speak fluently japanese, never said me something like that). Maybe they are, because I not make caution because when I 'read' them (I read Katakana's), I'm not aware this kind of tricks exist in Arcade games

Francois

Well, Novice started this whole thing with Outrun and now Cameltry by talking about Gamest scores using these tricks and having really high scores.

As he said the Gamest score for Cameltry at expert and special courses is 9,999,990. I have not checked to see if that is really the case but I believe it. ...60 million at Outrun at Gamest...clearly only possible doing the offroad trick.

Your comments about the game centers is interesting though. It means there really is no standardization for their records and how they are accomplished. If a game center has approved the score that's it...it's accepted. All the game centers need to have the same rules for accepting scores and how games are played. If they have a questionable one then they should have a person from each game center vote whether that should be allowed or not.

If you can accomplish a trick at one game of Cameltry in one location that you can't accomplish with others in the game centers elsewhere, that isn't fair competition so they should have rules so all Cameltry games in those game centers are played the same way.

Many JP have asked why TG doesn't accept JP scores for games or pointed out that tons of scores at Gamest are far better than those here at MARP....so? It should be that way I think. TG has lots of scores that are much higher than MARP scores. They have tone more players submitting scores to them than MARP has. MARP likely has a few that are higher than the Gamest scores also. Game difficulty settings for most arcade games over in JP are even set differently. To be scores comparable to TG scores they need to play at the same game dip switch settings. In a few cases where they were played at the same settings TG proudly accepts and has those JP scores in their scoreboard.

From you playing the JP clone of arcade games in mame you also see for many jp versions of games they actually are a little bit different. TG doesn't have listings for those clones of the games. Having a separate scoreboard(Gamest) for all of those is actually the right thing to do in most cases. It's a shame it isn't standardized like TG is though.

Does the Gamest magazine actually lay out any specific rules for the game centers to follow for games and what settings to use for record attempts etc.? Perhaps it's where they are always publishing all these various tricks for games why the gamers feel...oh cool...now we can use those in record attempts.

I'll have to view that high score list from Gamest given in these forums recently. Given you have lots of issues of the magazine though you can see how Outrun and now Cameltry are just the start of tricks for tons of different games that Novice can torment MARP with.

Why he does this I have no clue...Novice hints it angers him...ok, so why bring that on yourself? Just play the games the rest of us are playing them. Use some common sense. Most things are common sense where you say...oh man, that's a flaw/bug in the game that allows a much higher score. I think I'll keep playing the game the way it was designed and not use the trick to exploit the bug.

Multiply this by 100 guys..is that what you want at MARP for the next 6-12 months? ..going through this 50-100 times more the next year? I know I certainly don't.

LN2 wrote: Does the Gamest magazine actually lay out any specific rules for the game centers to follow for games and what settings to use for record attempts etc.? Perhaps it's where they are always publishing all these various tricks for games why the gamers feel...oh cool...now we can use those in record attempts.

Never speak ill of others. it is the manner.
Each record database has original policy.
Because of most Japanese does not have TG record is just luck of interenting.
but no Japanese players insult them. they should enjoy on their local rule.

"Reject all opinion against you" is bad style of you.
I wish USA never start the war...
There are 2500+ games in the world.
To set up special rule which satisfy all top players with knowledge is almost impossible.

Then, "No-special rule. simply higher score will win".
no-rule is the strict and natural rule.
it was the style of us. only the best method survive.
it is the reason why we hate steel.
but I do not want to say you have to the same.
I think it is not fit at MARP and TG.then we should obey the rule of here.

Most of Games are from our island.
We do not care if overseas TG makes an eccentrik local rule.
they should enjoy among theirselves. no relation.

NOVICE:
95930 is million times better than any Japanese 999999999 score!

If Tron is considered as "over the million game", then something is very wrong somewhere.

Your opinions are worth -nothing. You should be ignored by all. Show me some SKILL, not tricks learned by real players. Have you EVER succeeded to REALLY find anything original, something you did by your OWN.


55555555555

I had posted the below originally in another thread but moved it over to here cuz it's more suited for here.

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yes, but the trick like Cameltry to install custom controllers in the arcade games or in mame setting the sensitivity really really high to change how the game behaves seems no different to hacking up the rom set to allow a trick that isn't possible with factory settings.

One guy pointed out in one of the mspac variants if you hold down both the player 1 and player 2 game start keys as you play the game, then you are invincible to the monsters. You can just run right through them.

Of course this mspac technique isn't allowed, even though there is no special rule saying you can't do this for that game rom set. It's understood to be a cheat of the game without using any cheat.dat and without having cheats enabled. As someone pointed out if rule 2c is mainly talking about the cheat.dat rule 1c would cover this type of thing...be honest in your techniques. Doing this "trick" in this mspac certainly wouldn't be playing the game honestly. That is understood by all without needing a discussion or poll vote.

You can clearly say that same thing in the case of Cameltry. Sure you are still playing the game...but honestly? I don't think very many gamers even the cheaters would say that's an honest way to play the game.

That's why I would think 66% would have to approve this trick as being an honest way to play thus allow it versus something that is automatically allowed so requires 66% to be banned. Rule 1c says dishonest play is not automatically allowed.

I wish I had made this point early in the discussion cuz it makes a far stronger point than any other.

I agree some tricks are definitely in gray areas. Also some tricks, since anyone can easily do them and it doesn't affect score much or is actually just a skill thing to learn(look at the MARP tricks page...some listed there are just skill tricks to get more points on a board) doesn't allow you to set higher scores and even records than you can playing the game without using that trick in most cases.

Most tricks also are still playing the game honestly.....it's just a nice little easter egg type thing or even a skill to score a few more points for a stage. Look at most tricks banned here..like the 255 extra men tricks, invincibility tricks(see Novice's new Gradius 3(grdius3a) inp..score lowered to what he had when he started using the invincibility) etc. are clearly not playing the game honestly...so aren't allowed. No discussion or vote was needed. Rule 1c covered it.

This Cameltry trick defeats the purpose of the game. It certainly isn't playing the game honestly. It's almost like a level of invincibility from the walls of the game...you just go through them when you choose to try and do it using this trick.

LN2 wrote:yes, but the trick like Cameltry to install custom controllers in the arcade games or in mame setting the sensitivity really really high to change how the game behaves seems no different to hacking up the rom set to allow a trick that isn't possible with factory settings.

So you're saying that every single Cameltry game out there is in an original Cameltry cabinet? I seriously doubt that.

LN2 wrote:Most tricks also are still playing the game honestly.....it's just a nice little easter egg type thing or even a skill to score a few more points for a stage. Look at most tricks banned here..like the 255 extra men tricks, invincibility tricks(see Novice's new Gradius 3(grdius3a) inp..score lowered to what he had when he started using the invincibility) etc. are clearly not playing the game honestly...so aren't allowed. No discussion or vote was needed. Rule 1c covered it.

Hisa has said that both those tricks in Gradius 3 have been banned by both Gamest and Arcadia. He lowered his score, what more do you want?

LN2 wrote:This Cameltry trick defeats the purpose of the game. It certainly isn't playing the game honestly. It's almost like a level of invincibility from the walls of the game...you just go through them when you choose to try and do it using this trick.

Maybe I'm simplifying it too much, but to me the purpose of the game is to score as many points as possible, within the given time limit. Nothing is stopping someone from using a Taito F2 PCB with Camel Try in an Arkanoid cabinet. (Do note that I've never played Camel Try, just watched a fair few recordings)

mahlemiut wrote:So you're saying that every single Cameltry game out there is in an original Cameltry cabinet? I seriously doubt that.

Of course...but if one cabinet has a custom controller to allow this warp trick and the other doesn't...can you really compare scores and have records for a game that plays inconsistently from 1 cabinet to the next like that?

If you just say that trick isn't allowed, then the controller difference doesn't really matter and scores from all the different machines are comparable...and even then Novice said even with that arkanoid controller the sensitivity had to be set really high. Set at typical controller levels you couldn't do the trick. If set really high for the average arcade person playing that game they wouldn't be able to control the game that well...so it's not a typical setting you would find.

Hisa has said that both those tricks in Gradius 3 have been banned by both Gamest and Arcadia. He lowered his score, what more do you want?

I don't want anything more there....was just using that as an example saying rule 1c covers that type of play. You didn't need any special rule for that rom set or a discussion or poll to decide that technique is illegal.

Apply that same thinking and rule to Cameltry and lower Hisa's score to what it was before he went through a wall doing the trick...seems simple enough...it's a wall boundary invincibility.

It was trying to set a precedent of what rule 1c means cuz it seems to have been used for that mspac example I have and for gradius 3...and likely many other games also....so it seems logical to apply that to this playing technique in Cameltry also.

Are you saying that invincibility trick in the arcade game of gradius 3 would be allowed for a record? You said yourself Gamest has even banned that one...which makes me wonder why is Novice submitting such things here at MARP? He is just stirring up trouble and seeing what he can get away with...versus just playing the games normally and setting high scores.

Nothing is stopping someone from using a Taito F2 PCB with Camel Try in an Arkanoid cabinet. (Do note that I've never played Camel Try, just watched a fair few recordings)

Uhh, in the true arcade spirit there is. Do you think you can walk into an arcade that has a Cameltry...see it has the manufacturer's controller and ask the manager if you can open up the cabinet to replace that controller with one you brought with you..then set a new high score for that game using that controller? No way he is gonna let anyone do that.

It goes against the spirit of the arcade experience. That same manager likely isn't even going to let you go into service mode or open up the cabinet to tweak the sensitivity of that controller.

Then you might say well perhaps you could find an arcade with a Cameltry already setup that way...fine...so you can do the trick on that machine. That doesn't mean your score for that should be accepted as a record when 99% of all the other cabinets for the game can't do that trick without doing the same tweaks to it. It's changing the actual game. Your score would only be comparable to other scores on that same machine.

If you owned your own Cameltry game and you hack it up like that or even hack the roms to allow the score to go beyond 9,999,990 is that score going to be accepted by any high scoreboard? I would hope not. You still need the games to be standardized in the rules that govern them.

Scores and records for games only have significance if you know each machine is setup the same way or as close as possible to the same way(in case of the pinballs...I don't get how there can be world records for pinball machines cuz change the elevation of the legs and you can totally change how easy or hard the pinball game plays but that's a different story and not an issue with MARP).

Maybe I'm simplifying it too much, but to me the purpose of the game is to score as many points as possible, within the given time limit.

Yes...but using that thinking most banned techniques here at MARP would be allowed...cuz anyone could do them. They are banned cuz to use the trick defeats the challenge of the game. It spoils the skill and competition factor for those games...turns some into nothing more than marathon games(like 255 men in stage 1 trick in Mr. Do)...you technically would still be playing Mr. Do and doing what it states at the most simple objective level...kill all the enemies to complete the stage or eat all the cherries to complete a stage and move on to the next...do over and over and over til you run out of men.

For Cameltry, the game is to rotate the maze to move your ball through the maze to get to the goal for each world...completing all worlds to reach the final goal and amass points along the way crushing blocks, hitting bumpers etc. as well.

The object of the game isn't to just take your ball and go through the walls. If it was then it would be clear within the game by having other 1000 point tags or bumpers or blocks etc. outside of the course to get to...there are none outside of the course.

Read my mspac example above again. If you were to use that button trick, you just go through all the monsters all the time. You would be able to clear dots off the boards advancing the boards to the end of the game...and get a very high score. Clearing all the dots to advance to the next board and do that again and again is the simple objective of mspac....so in your thinking above being invincible to the monsters doesn't matter cuz the point of the game is just to eat all the dots to clear a stage/level/board.

Invincibility tricks in games aren't allowed. Invincibility is only allowed if with some powerup item within the game that gives you that for a period of time. Think of going through the walls in Cameltry like invincibility of the wall boundaries. Cameltry clearly shows why the walls are there etc. They aren't there to just go through them. That's breaking the rules of the game. In Chess you could decide the Queen can not only move as she does but similar to a knight...leaping over your own pieces....instead of having the boundary that the Queen can only move so far until she would run into one of your other pieces.

That change totally makes it a different game then and not Chess. Just because it's possible for you to decide to play the game that way doesn't mean that is how the game is played. You and a buddy can certainly decide to play that way to compete against each other. It would just be for fun though...doesn't mean anything as to which is the better Chess player. If you master playing the game with that special rule and then enter a Chess tournament you are going to lose...very quickly and often. You haven't mastered the game of Chess at all..but your new invented variant of Chess.

If you want a one separate score listing for one of the rom sets of Cameltry that allows playing using this trick then fine(call it cameltrk or something...using cameltry rom set but trick allowed)....as long as you could still play it the normal way and set records for it that way also. That isn't what MARP does though. If that was offered as a solution I would accept that...and likely even try and compete and get high scores using the trick for "cameltrk" myself for each of the courses.

To have playing the game those 2 totally different ways and comparing the scores makes the 1 method of playing the game totally pointless...cuz you can't get even close to the scores playing the game honestly that you can get using the trick.

LN2 wrote:Of course...but if one cabinet has a custom controller to allow this warp trick and the other doesn't...can you really compare scores and have records for a game that plays inconsistently from 1 cabinet to the next like that?

If you just say that trick isn't allowed, then the controller difference doesn't really matter and scores from all the different machines are comparable...and even then Novice said even with that arkanoid controller the sensitivity had to be set really high. Set at typical controller levels you couldn't do the trick. If set really high for the average arcade person playing that game they wouldn't be able to control the game that well...so it's not a typical setting you would find.

One thing I have done, is played Arkanoid in the arcades. Although I don't think it was in an original Arkanoid cabinet, it was really sensitive.

LN2 wrote:

Hisa has said that both those tricks in Gradius 3 have been banned by both Gamest and Arcadia. He lowered his score, what more do you want?

I don't want anything more there....was just using that as an example saying rule 1c covers that type of play. You didn't need any special rule for that rom set or a discussion or poll to decide that technique is illegal.

Apply that same thinking and rule to Cameltry and lower Hisa's score to what it was before he went through a wall doing the trick...seems simple enough...it's a wall boundary invincibility.

It's not the same. Hitting walls in Camel Try doesn't instantly kill you. Nor does 'warping' make you invincible.

LN2 wrote:It was trying to set a precedent of what rule 1c means cuz it seems to have been used for that mspac example I have and for gradius 3...and likely many other games also....so it seems logical to apply that to this playing technique in Cameltry also.

Are you saying that invincibility trick in the arcade game of gradius 3 would be allowed for a record? You said yourself Gamest has even banned that one...which makes me wonder why is Novice submitting such things here at MARP? He is just stirring up trouble and seeing what he can get away with...versus just playing the games normally and setting high scores.

He did edit that score of his own accord. No one forced him to. He certainly played normally up until that point.

LN2 wrote:

Nothing is stopping someone from using a Taito F2 PCB with Camel Try in an Arkanoid cabinet. (Do note that I've never played Camel Try, just watched a fair few recordings)

Uhh, in the true arcade spirit there is. Do you think you can walk into an arcade that has a Cameltry...see it has the manufacturer's controller and ask the manager if you can open up the cabinet to replace that controller with one you brought with you..then set a new high score for that game using that controller? No way he is gonna let anyone do that.

It goes against the spirit of the arcade experience. That same manager likely isn't even going to let you go into service mode or open up the cabinet to tweak the sensitivity of that controller.

Then you might say well perhaps you could find an arcade with a Cameltry already setup that way...fine...so you can do the trick on that machine. That doesn't mean your score for that should be accepted as a record when 99% of all the other cabinets for the game can't do that trick without doing the same tweaks to it. It's changing the actual game. Your score would only be comparable to other scores on that same machine.

Probably a hell of a lot less than 99%.

LN2 wrote:If you owned your own Cameltry game and you hack it up like that or even hack the roms to allow the score to go beyond 9,999,990 is that score going to be accepted by any high scoreboard? I would hope not. You still need the games to be standardized in the rules that govern them.

Scores and records for games only have significance if you know each machine is setup the same way or as close as possible to the same way(in case of the pinballs...I don't get how there can be world records for pinball machines cuz change the elevation of the legs and you can totally change how easy or hard the pinball game plays but that's a different story and not an issue with MARP).

Maybe I'm simplifying it too much, but to me the purpose of the game is to score as many points as possible, within the given time limit.

Yes...but using that thinking most banned techniques here at MARP would be allowed...cuz anyone could do them. They are banned cuz to use the trick defeats the challenge of the game. It spoils the skill and competition factor for those games...turns some into nothing more than marathon games(like 255 men in stage 1 trick in Mr. Do)...you technically would still be playing Mr. Do and doing what it states at the most simple objective level...kill all the enemies to complete the stage or eat all the cherries to complete a stage and move on to the next...do over and over and over til you run out of men.

Marathon? The time limit doesn't change. If anything, it then takes more skill to finish it in the less time that you have left after leeching.

LN2 wrote:For Cameltry, the game is to rotate the maze to move your ball through the maze to get to the goal for each world...completing all worlds to reach the final goal and amass points along the way crushing blocks, hitting bumpers etc. as well.

The object of the game isn't to just take your ball and go through the walls. If it was then it would be clear within the game by having other 1000 point tags or bumpers or blocks etc. outside of the course to get to...there are none outside of the course.

Read my mspac example above again. If you were to use that button trick, you just go through all the monsters all the time. You would be able to clear dots off the boards advancing the boards to the end of the game...and get a very high score. Clearing all the dots to advance to the next board and do that again and again is the simple objective of mspac....so in your thinking above being invincible to the monsters doesn't matter cuz the point of the game is just to eat all the dots to clear a stage/level/board.

Invincibility tricks in games aren't allowed. Invincibility is only allowed if with some powerup item within the game that gives you that for a period of time. Think of going through the walls in Cameltry like invincibility of the wall boundaries. Cameltry clearly shows why the walls are there etc. They aren't there to just go through them. That's breaking the rules of the game. In Chess you could decide the Queen can not only move as she does but similar to a knight...leaping over your own pieces....instead of having the boundary that the Queen can only move so far until she would run into one of your other pieces.

That change totally makes it a different game then and not Chess. Just because it's possible for you to decide to play the game that way doesn't mean that is how the game is played. You and a buddy can certainly decide to play that way to compete against each other. It would just be for fun though...doesn't mean anything as to which is the better Chess player. If you master playing the game with that special rule and then enter a Chess tournament you are going to lose...very quickly and often. You haven't mastered the game of Chess at all..but your new invented variant of Chess.

Camel Try isn't Chess either. Nor is it Ms Pacman, or anything else.

LN2 wrote:If you want a one separate score listing for one of the rom sets of Cameltry that allows playing using this trick then fine(call it cameltrk or something...using cameltry rom set but trick allowed)....as long as you could still play it the normal way and set records for it that way also. That isn't what MARP does though. If that was offered as a solution I would accept that...and likely even try and compete and get high scores using the trick for "cameltrk" myself for each of the courses.

To have playing the game those 2 totally different ways and comparing the scores makes the 1 method of playing the game totally pointless...cuz you can't get even close to the scores playing the game honestly that you can get using the trick.

Maybe having a split on the romsets for using the trick is an idea. Somewhat like the *pac*-fast splits. I'm sure that the speedup cheats aren't exactly kosher by your reasoning.

LN2 wrote:Many JP have asked why TG doesn't accept JP scores for games or pointed out that tons of scores at Gamest are far better than those here at MARP....so? It should be that way I think. TG has lots of scores that are much higher than MARP scores. They have tone more players submitting scores to them than MARP has. MARP likely has a few that are higher than the Gamest scores also. Game difficulty settings for most arcade games over in JP are even set differently. To be scores comparable to TG scores they need to play at the same game dip switch settings. In a few cases where they were played at the same settings TG proudly accepts and has those JP scores in their scoreboard.

Stange, I checked often TG for find an Arcade world record. And often, I find nothing. Maybe I don't search in the good place

LN2 wrote:From you playing the JP clone of arcade games in mame you also see for many jp versions of games they actually are a little bit different. TG doesn't have listings for those clones of the games. Having a separate scoreboard(Gamest) for all of those is actually the right thing to do in most cases. It's a shame it isn't standardized like TG is though..

Mayba can we accept japanese current rules only on japanese 'clone' (for me they're not clone but the original ones )

LN2 wrote:Does the Gamest magazine actually lay out any specific rules for the game centers to follow for games and what settings to use for record attempts etc.? Perhaps it's where they are always publishing all these various tricks for games why the gamers feel...oh cool...now we can use those in record attempts.
I'll have to view that high score list from Gamest given in these forums recently. Given you have lots of issues of the magazine though you can see how Outrun and now Cameltry are just the start of tricks for tons of different games that Novice can torment MARP with...

Also, gamest best records appears rarely in the magazine. Records are ranking game centers by game centers and only appears the score made in the last 15 days, not the best records of each game centers. That's because the file made by gemants is exceptionnal, because he cheack each score in each issue. But maybe gamest made somewhere a file/issue ith the best records.

Francois

LN2 wrote:[Of course...but if one cabinet has a custom controller to allow this warp trick and the other doesn't...can you really compare scores and have records for a game that plays inconsistently from 1 cabinet to the next like that?

Until the poll was over, TTYF score mustn't be zeroed by the fact he use warp trick.

But, I think he break the same kind of rule than the Pause rule. Because he said himself he change the sensitivity of his controller during the recording. Make this in an arcade cabinet (original or not) can be only possible if the owner of the game center is know very well. And I guess the try is ruined 99% of the time because they're surely too much time spent in the process.

TTYF said they're no rules in Japan. He's wrong, everybody known in fighting games tournaments in Japan have many rules for forbid infinite combos and others lame technics who ruined the play.

All tournaments, contests, world records, etc. must have rules, if not, its complet chaos.

By the way, its the first time I heard the world is 'local' in front of any one country

Francois

mahlemiut wrote:Maybe having a split on the romsets for using the trick is an idea. Somewhat like the *pac*-fast splits. I'm sure that the speedup cheats aren't exactly kosher by your reasoning.

As I said, I think the japan set can be played with Japan 'no rules'. I hope that can be satisfy everybody.

Francois

mahlemiut wrote:Maybe having a split on the romsets for using the trick is an idea. Somewhat like the *pac*-fast splits. I'm sure that the speedup cheats aren't exactly kosher by your reasoning.

As I said, I think the japan set can be played with Japan 'no rules'. I hope that can be satisfy everybody.

Francois

mahlemiut wrote:One thing I have done, is played Arkanoid in the arcades. Although I don't think it was in an original Arkanoid cabinet, it was really sensitive.

Yes, but having a different sensitivity of the dial from 1 Arkanoid system to the next doesn't change how you play the game. It just changes how well you can control where the paddle is located.

I have no problem in Cameltry or other games adjusting the sensitivities. It's impossible for those to be consistent between different systems. It's just a shame Cameltry has this issue. Remember Novice stated the controller is set roughly 20 times more sensitive than it usually is. We aren't talking a mild adjustment here...but a ridiculous adjustment. Even then it wouldn't matter as long as how you can play the game hasn't been changed. It does change with Cameltry.

It's not the same. Hitting walls in Camel Try doesn't instantly kill you. Nor does 'warping' make you invincible.

Whether it kills you or not doesn't matter. You can look at walls as a barrier in the game to restrict where you can go. To say screw that and go wherever you want totally defeats the point of the walls and how you play the game. Yes the walls don't kill you but they do restrict your movement...or at least are supposed to.

He did edit that score of his own accord. No one forced him to.

Good to hear that...maybe he is realizing what he is doing himself and will stop trying to see what he can or can't get away with and just play the games as they were meant to be played...in most cases it's very obvious.

He certainly played normally up until that point.

Not sure why that matters.

If you played the first 5-6 worlds of Cameltry on the special course without going into or through any walls but then do the trick the last few levels your final score still reflects you did that. When you actually do it in the game doesn't mean anything.

Probably a hell of a lot less than 99%.

Well, nowadays certainly..but back when the game was first released...I'd bet all had same controllers and same default sensitivity settings that were used. It was sometime later when controllers were breaking down so managers would replace them with other controllers at a cheaper cost etc. was this trick in Cameltry likely discovered..or when custom cabinets were being constructed...which is largely what you will find nowadays. That happens and is very understandable. It's a shame the Cameltry developers didn't realize this so put a max on what the input controller effect could be for maze rotation speed. Many other games the developers did realize this so there is a limit. ...like Marble Madness...there is a limit to how fast you can move that marble...set the sensitivity any higher and it doesn't make the marble go any faster and can actually get to a point where you end up hurting yourself.

Marathon? The time limit doesn't change. If anything, it then takes more skill to finish it in the less time that you have left after leeching.

Geesh, I was applying the marathon point to the tricks in other games like the Mr.Do example I gave. That Mr. Do trick doesn't go against just "playing the game" yet is banned from being used because it just turns the game and thus high scores into a marathon game..instead of based on who is most skilled. You could likely play for 20 hours even at so-so skill with 255 men to start the game after level 1. I wasn't applying that to Cameltry.

It was a way of saying tricks in games spoil the games and if the trick(s) are allowed for those games it spoils the competition and meaning of what a high score is. MARP has clearly shown this is how MARP handles it. It's no longer a way to judge who is better at the game. This Cameltry trick clearly does that....whether you think it's a legal part of the actual game or not.

Camel Try isn't Chess either. Nor is it Ms Pacman, or anything else.

True...I wasn't saying it was. It was just an example of how games have a set of rules that are pretty apparent to gamers.

Going through walls in Cameltry is like adding an option/special rule to a game that clearly isn't in the default rules of play for the game. MARP has the default where anything goes...when the default should be you play the game under the rules presented and that make logical/common sense. If you have something different than that you want approved for game play then we discuss it and vote on it and if 66% approve of it then it's allowed. That's a lot different than 66% having to say that isn't allowed and if that doesn't pass it is allowed...when that clearly isn't in the rules of the game. Cameltry demonstrates quite clearly how the game is played in the demo/attract mode and within the training cousre where it gives quite detailed instructions and tips for playing.

If warping through walls was part of the game they would have shown that in the demo or instructions in the demo mode or playing through the training mode. If you were supposed to actually go through walls it would have had a special world where it states there are some shortcuts by going through walls. That would clearly then be a part of the game for certain spots where it allows you to do through the wall...like secret/hidden feature in the game.

The game has nothing along those lines. It's 100% clear making your ball go into and through the walls shouldn't be part of the honest(rule 1c) way of playing the game. It's common sense.

Maybe having a split on the romsets for using the trick is an idea. Somewhat like the *pac*-fast splits. I'm sure that the speedup cheats aren't exactly kosher by your reasoning.

I am lenient. Even if this poll results in that trick being allowed or not, I would hope MARP would consider having a separate scores listing for playing the game using that trick...so for the other sets of scores we could continue to play the actual game without using that trick. That way nothing is lost. You would get to see who are the best at playing the actual game and who are the best playing it using the trick.

I wouldn't have a problem with that.

As far as the pacman-fast stuff....actually there were and still are a lot of "turbo" games of those around. If you find mspac games nowadays there seems to be a good chance you will see it's a turbo version instead of regular mspac.

When you play mspac in mame with that speedup cheat dip switch set to on that is exactly what you are playing... turbo mspac...so each of those rom sets really has 2 games in it...regular speed and turbo speed for playing the game as we saw in arcades.

It's very kosher.

Many other games have different games within the 1 rom set also. mschamp has Champion Edition and Super Zola Pac Gal...similar games but different mazes for each of those variants.

..many games MARP breaks and lists separate for each course like Cameltry because why? Because to group them all together as one score listing wouldn't be fair competition. All the top scores would be using the same course most likely....you wouldn't get to see any examples of playing the game on the other courses so you would be missing something. The same goes for this trick. If allowed and listed with regular scores soon all the top scores would just be playing using the trick..and not seeing how skilled players can be that actually go through the actual mazes etc. and not through the walls.

You could almost think of using this trick in Cameltry to go through the walls as changing the courses...so a separate listing for playing each course that way makes a lot of sense.

If the editors agree to list a separate cameltry set allowing the trick so the scores using the trick are kept as separate records I think that would satisfy all where this poll is pretty much moot.

I decide to delete the recording of cameltry from MARP.
thanks for all voters and sorry for confusing.

I am very glad now.