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Novice, you mean all Japanese players accept everything (bugs & cheats)???

I don't believe that for one minute! So for example the Grandstand trick in Paperboy is acceptable over there? Here at MARP it is considered a BUG and is banned. Games must be handled on a case-by-case basis.

What I'm saying is polls about bugs and tricks must follow the same reasoning and be decided by game and not a general rule.

zlk wrote:Does this mean the poll to reject this poll is also null and void?

I think so.
everyone can make new poll and only uploader will become victim.
of course no one want to be it.
so marp won't get new trick challenger.

***PL*** wrote:Novice, you mean all Japanese players accept everything (bugs & cheats)???

I don't believe that for one minute! So for example the Grandstand trick in Paperboy is acceptable over there?

do you mention to 300 million points bug at paperboy?
such kind of tricks/endless leeching find, the game is recognized as
no-record game.

it is the reason why u.n.squadron(area88) does not have record.

Novice wrote:

zlk wrote:Does this mean the poll to reject this poll is also null and void?

I think so.
everyone can make new poll and only uploader will become victim.
of course no one want to be it.
so marp won't get new trick challenger.

You don't get it. Everything in gameplay is legal until a vote to ban the technique passes by 2/3.

An uploader always takes a risk when submitting an INP and has obviously not followed acceptable game play.

You should not complain, your Outrun offroad trick was not banned.

Novice wrote:

***PL*** wrote:Novice, you mean all Japanese players accept everything (bugs & cheats)???

I don't believe that for one minute! So for example the Grandstand trick in Paperboy is acceptable over there?

do you mention to 300 million points bug at paperboy?
such kind of tricks/endless leeching find, the game is recognized as
no-record game.

it is the reason why u.n.squadron(area88) does not have record.

Every game should have a record -- that's why sometimes special rules are needed to prevent cheating (bug & trick exploitation) and get real scores.

***PL*** wrote:You don't get it. Everything in gameplay is legal until a vote to ban the technique passes by 2/3.

This is what I and many other members don't understand. Look at rule 2c in the MARP rules. It suggests that all tricks that are equivalent to cheating(not playing the game under it's intended rules) are not allowed.

Therefore it would require 66% to approve that different method of playing the game using the trick.

You should not complain, your Outrun offroad trick was not banned.

Only because of the above.....only 40% approved of that "cheating" method of playing Outrun...yet that was enough for it to be approved?

The 66% needed was put on the wrong opinion. Now banning special things like certain point leeching or applying special rules to limit men or set certain dip switch settings other than mame default the 66% is fine to approve those types of special rules.

A special rule saying you can't cheat at a game isn't needed at all because rule 2c already covers it. You would need a special rule saying it's actually permitted in this special case.

40% say it's ok to play the game this alternate way and that's enough to allow it...hmmm.

That Outrun result has essentially forced everyone to play that game by cheating and using that trick to be able to reach the high scores you can get by using the trick. It's impossible to obtain those 52+ million type scores unless you use the trick. That isn't in the spirit of MARP at all IMHO. 60% agreed it isn't either.

Just my opinion and something to think about there...

LN2 wrote: This is what I and many other members don't understand. Look at rule 2c in the MARP rules. It suggests that all tricks that are equivalent to cheating(not playing the game under it's intended rules) are not allowed.

Therefore it would require 66% to approve that different method of playing the game using the trick.

your interpretation of intended gameplay is biased. For a global default, Intended game play could almost always means finishing the game. Hisa finished the game, just just did it in a way "different" than other people did it. I would think it requires a vote to see if the trick is NOT acceptable if the game is finished.

although with camel try Hisa finishes the game, the focus of his attention goes ONLY to doing the trick and the rest is just finishing the game. But it's a pretty fine line either way you look at it, which is why votes are necesary.

To be honest I think tricks and bugs add spice to a game, something to be discovered after a game has been released into the arcades, something for the video games magazines to publish and give renewed interest to a game.

I reckon practically all games progamming teams already know about the tricks and bugs in their own games before it's release and as long as the game doesn't crash or become unplayable it gets left in because it adds a certain element or a talking point. Some older games got a chip update later if the bug could be exploited to extend gameplay such as Joust, Tempest, MrDo. Defender has tons of what you might call 'bugs' but they all add character to the game.

I believe the programmers knew about the offroad gear up/down 'bug' and left it in intentionally. It sort of separates the casual players from the élite who want to persue the truth in a game and milk everything out of it.

Let me pose a scenario:

After playing your favourite new game for a few weeks or months you think you've mastered it and you are the best player in your area, this is a popular game and your name is top everywhere. Then one day you enter an arcade and gosh, someone has beaten your high score to a level you never thought possible. Later that day you see someone play the game and he does something, some amazing trick that you never even thought possible and certainly not what is intended by playing the game in a natural way. What is more, you know you can thrash his score if you did this trick yourself.

Now be honest, are you going to let this kid get away with it? Of course not! From now on you are going to use that trick/bug to it's full potential. Other people will watch in amazement as you play even though this is not the way the game was intended to be played. If the trick only has a 30% chance of success, that only adds to the buzz you get when you finish although it does hurt your pocket a little bit with all the failures.

Yes I know this is MARP and not an arcade. Unfortunately the atmosphere isn't quite the same as playing in a pub with crowds holding their pints watching in awe as you play, 'another video game bites the dust' they say. Those were the days .

Cameltry IMO is a different kettle of fish. It is the emulation that is the problem here, you can crank up the analogue settings. Novice's inp did make me laugh though but it doesn't go down well with the community to allow this kind of adjustment, otherwise it's like saying anything goes, 'NO HOLDS BARRED', let rip.

Btw that Marble Madness trick of Guinness's has a 0% success rate with me even after about 50 attempts with the infinite time cheat, there must be a trick to it somewhere .

Ok enough, I'm tired, cheers all . Gaz.

Good point Gary!

LordGaz wrote:To be honest I think tricks and bugs add spice to a game

Yes, tricks can be cool. MARP has a nice page for tricks to show them off.

I believe the programmers knew about the offroad gear up/down 'bug' and left it in intentionally. It sort of separates the casual players from the élite who want to persue the truth in a game and milk everything out of it.

That's your belief. I think if they knew of that bug they likely figured it wouldn't matter. Manufacturers wanted their games to be popular thus tons of units bought by various arcades, if some bug actually assists that it's more money for them. Most manufacturers don't give a crap about records and high scores.

Think of it even this way, if that Outrun trick is intentionally there then it allows a player to finish the game 10-15 seconds faster than if you don't use the trick, thus for busy arcades when the game was popular it means shorter game times thus more plays of it per day which means more money for the arcade etc. No arcade manager is gonna mind someone using a trick to cheat and get higher scores if it allows the game to make more money for the arcade.

However, if that arcade were to have a special contest for the game and knew about that rule they _might_ choose to not allow that type of play for the contest. For any contest, the players would have to be playing whatever games they are by the same rules.

Now be honest, are you going to let this kid get away with it? Of course not! From now on you are going to use that trick/bug to it's full potential.

Ok, let's apply that to Cameltry...cuz I had earlier in the other Cameltry thread. I'll present it here too then. All the inps for the top scores Cameltry would sooner or later all be using that warping through walls trick to do what Novice did and beyond to get the high score. Now suddenly, the high score isn't based really on how well you can play real parts of the game like crushing blocks and getting through the mazes very cleanly and quickly, but instead just your ability to do the trick and get in those tiny spots with the bumper to get millions...and you twiddle your thumbs for 50 seconds while getting 2 million off a bumper before you warp back out of that spot. Novice isn't doing anything when that ball is against that bumper.

Remember Novice's inp here was just a low skilled example of using this trick. Once you get the hang of it you can easily use it several places on different worlds and screw actually running through the mazes like he did after world 2. You just warp through walls taking shortcuts to the goal in 1 second for a couple of them. Then, since you were able to complete that world in 1 second you have lots of time again to warp into a bumper spot to get another 1-2 million...then repeat a couple more times.

Novice said the game maxes out at 9,999,990 and people have done this at the special and expert course levels. Now for MARP you might have a few all tied at 9,999,990....oh yeah...all tied...no competition at all then. Once you reach 9,999,990 there is no reason to play the game again cuz your score can't be beat. All fun lost versus playing it the normal way where you can still perhaps get a slightly higher score...a run even slightly closer to perfect.

It's clear this totally spoils the game and makes it a totally "different" game. Is it still a game? I guess...sure....some might have fun playing it that way. However, that isn't "Cameltry" anymore but something else. Outrun isn't quite as drastic of a case as Cameltry but it's the same principle. If you race it without the trick you can't obtain the scores and finish in the same time as using the trick. Those with less skill at the game but using the trick will obtain much higher scores than those with great skills playing without the trick. It's 2 different games almost...

As noted by someone, MARP would really need 2 separate listings for the game...1 playing it normally the way QRS and I have...and one playing it using the trick the way Novice has. That's the only way you could keep a good and fun competition for the game for those that want to play it the normal and frankly honest way. However, MARP already has enough listings for games and the clones of them etc. to add special listings where tricks are allowed would just make things more cluttered according to some. I actually think that might be the real solution in some cases though like Cameltry...have a special listing of it where you can play it using the trick. That way both the player most skilled at playing the game both ways get recognized...similar thing for Outrun and others.

QRS and I had tons of fun a couple weeks ago surpassing each other's Cameltry scores. We both took our skills to a new level from this competition. This is exactly what MARP is about....friendly competition and fun. Since Novice submitted his 2.2 million inp with thw trick, I have had no desire at all to try and play this game now to surpass QRS's great scores and perhaps imporve some of mine. QRS hasn't played it since either. So what has Novice's inp accomplished? It destroyed the fun and competition of playing the game. With the scores using the trick to be allowed to be listed with those playing it normally totally removes the recognition of accomplishment of those playing it without using the trick. The recognition just goes to the top scores which would all be the trick ones.

Other people will watch in amazement as you play even though this is not the way the game was intended to be played.

Yes, it's cool for showmanship etc. It's not for records though.

If one playing with the tricks has such great skill at Cameltry then he/she should play it normally and set the high scores to prove their skill.

Novice has set the high score for Outrun for one of the other rom sets of it not using that trick....so what did he use the trick on the 1 set if he can obtain the high score without the trick?

Cameltry IMO is a different kettle of fish. It is the emulation that is the problem here, you can crank up the analogue settings.

Actually it's not the emulation that's at fault. As Novice said, for Cameltry arcade machines that had modified controllers you could do this same trick. That's his justification for allowing the trick. However, as he also stated the original controller settings for the arcade don't allow the trick. It's just a flaw the manufacturer had the rotation speed limited by the controller hardware instead of some max in the software/code.

I'm surprised his inp isn't already zeroed out though cuz he admitted changing the sensitivity of the controller during the game which is clearly something not allowed. A few others have already posted it should be zeroed out because of this. However, if that is done he will just play it again using the trick but not change the sensitivity...can easily have 1 high sensitivity for warping with the key and another low sensitivity for playing the rest of it with the "dial"/mouse. That's also something the arcade game wouldn't have.

LN2 wrote:Novice said the game maxes out at 9,999,990 and people have done this at the special and expert course levels. Now for MARP you might have a few all tied at 9,999,990....oh yeah...all tied...no competition at all then. Once you reach 9,999,990 there is no reason to play the game again cuz your score can't be beat. All fun lost versus playing it the normal way where you can still perhaps get a slightly higher score...a run even slightly closer to perfect.

do not worry!
it is impossible for you.

before this trick was found,record of normal iron ball game was more than 1.1m.

and take 5 month to grow it up to 10m-10

Novice wrote:before this trick was found,record of normal iron ball game was more than 1.1m.

ok, so where is your 1 million point game playing it without using the trick? I'd love to see that.

If you mean for the expert course, yes I guess 1 million is possible if you get the slot machine and do the lottery thing so you have a lot more time to leech at those bumpers on that 1 world at expert. Even then those scores are based on the luck of that slot machine and lottery...instead of just skill. Now if someone can get 1+ million on it without using those also, then I would love to see an example cuz that must be incredible skill.

Using the trick I could easily top your 2.2 million. I could easily see getting at least 6 million.

I have no clue how hard it would be to reach 9,999,990 though, but can see it as possible.

I'm curious, why do you think the Cameltry trick or the one in Outrun require great skill to do?

However, I wouldn't regard inps I do of several million using that trick as highly as I do the inps I currently have submitted at MARP which require a lot more skill to do than warping through walls by just making the maze rotate very quickly.

LN2 wrote:

I believe the programmers knew about the offroad gear up/down 'bug' and left it in intentionally. It sort of separates the casual players from the élite who want to persue the truth in a game and milk everything out of it.

That's your belief. I think if they knew of that bug they likely figured it wouldn't matter. Manufacturers wanted their games to be popular thus tons of units bought by various arcades, if some bug actually assists that it's more money for them. Most manufacturers don't give a crap about records and high scores.

Don't get me wrong, I just think that during testing this bug would have been found and reported but the development team chose to leave it in reasoning that if someone wants to use it as a trick then good luck to them.

LN2 wrote:However, if that arcade were to have a special contest for the game and knew about that rule they _might_ choose to not allow that type of play for the contest.

I agree to a point. In your holiday camp/seaside family fun competition then yes but in a more serious competition where only hardcore gamers remain, the contestants might approach the referees and agree to allow or disallow certain tricks.

LN2 wrote:

Cameltry IMO is a different kettle of fish. It is the emulation that is the problem here, you can crank up the analogue settings.

Actually it's not the emulation that's at fault. As Novice said, for Cameltry arcade machines that had modified controllers you could do this same trick. That's his justification for allowing the trick. However, as he also stated the original controller settings for the arcade don't allow the trick. It's just a flaw the manufacturer had the rotation speed limited by the controller hardware instead of some max in the software/code.

Yes I realized this soon after I posted. In this case I change my view to allow the trick because you could plug in a modified controller with some sort of dynamic adjustable sensitivity which would also justify the changing of the analogue settings mid-game.

LN2 wrote:I'm surprised his inp isn't already zeroed out though cuz he admitted changing the sensitivity of the controller during the game which is clearly something not allowed. A few others have already posted it should be zeroed out because of this. However, if that is done he will just play it again using the trick but not change the sensitivity...can easily have 1 high sensitivity for warping with the key and another low sensitivity for playing the rest of it with the "dial"/mouse. That's also something the arcade game wouldn't have.

See above, I don't really see the logic behind not allowing changing of the analogue settings mid-game. What if there was part of the maze that needed more sensitive movement and you were using the keyboard? Then you should be allowed to change the settings accordingly.

I can see where you're coming from though, these are just my views at the moment. Nice arguing with you . Gaz.

LordGaz wrote:Yes I realized this soon after I posted. In this case I change my view to allow the trick because you could plug in a modified controller with some sort of dynamic adjustable sensitivity which would also justify the changing of the analogue settings mid-game.

??? Why would knowing you can hack up the arcade machine putting a different controller on it that allows you to cheat at the game make you change your view and accept cheating at the game?

If anything that should have clearly set what rules of the game the game itself was designed for.

See above, I don't really see the logic behind not allowing changing of the analogue settings mid-game. What if there was part of the maze that needed more sensitive movement and you were using the keyboard? Then you should be allowed to change the settings accordingly.

Nope you wouldn't be allowed to change the settings at all during a game....only in between games.

The logic as clearly given by one of the editors above is a big part of the spirit of MARP is to play arcade games via MAME in the same way you would play them in the arcades. This is why MARP doesn't allow pausing during inp recordings for example....cuz you wouldn't be able to just play any arcade game in an arcade and pulse the game without some custom setup cabinet with a button that triggers the dip switch for pausing the game(for games that have a dip switch for that).

Now, do you think an arcade owner is gonna let you just come in, open up the cabinet of Cameltry and start changing the settings of the controller in it? No way! Do you think that controller would be dynamic to a regular arcade player during a game? No way! I actually don't think it would even be adjustable by a player in between games. The settings of the controller sensitivity are totally at the discretion of the arcade.

Your example talks about adding some custom controller that has dynamic sensitivity changing handy so you can very quickly adjust to a new setting. Sure if you have your own cabinet of it in your home or own an arcade etc. you might be able to do that. Even then you have deviated from what the manufacturers specifications would be. you are then no longer playing the official game but a variant. Any scores from playing that variant should be treated that way....not grouped and compared in score and skill to those playing the original game.

It's not much different versus making a hacked up rom set or playing the game with different dip switch settings. You have changed the game to play it by different rules....rules in this case clearly never intended by the manufacturer for the arcade game.

You can't adjust the controls in any arcade game without opening up the cabinet...which goes against already set MARP policies.

Sure you can set it to whatever you want in mame in between games, but not change it during a game. Even then if you say fine that allows you to set that extremely high sensitivity for the controller so you can warp through walls in Cameltry, that doesn't make the trick any less of a method of cheating at the game. You have reinvented the game to something else by playing it where you can warp through walls and say screw the world designs and most aspects of playing the game...therefore any records for it playing it that way should be kept separate from the scores and records playing it under the manufacturer's rules for the game.

I am not sure if you know this LN2, but during several TG marathon games, when a players joystick broke down, the machine was opened up in an attempt to fix it. As long as the game didn't reset, the score would have been accepted.