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Re: The official awesome replay thread
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:32 pm
by Kale
sikraiken wrote:Kale wrote:If he's the same guy with the inp recently uploaded on MARP, he's cheating, period.
Falsificare?
Why are you saying he's cheating? You can't just make a claim without a reason.
First off, falsificare doesn't mean cheating but bootlegging. And yes, I also know that's actually an inside joke from shmups forum ...
Secondary, if you use a "lagless" version you are using a version on which you remove stuff from the original HW ... original Dodonpachi Arcade version has that lag and it's called sprite buffering* ... and unless I'm mistaken all of the WolfMAME extra stuff that it removes from original MAME (throttling, cheating engine, ways of pausing etc.) are all for a reason: play MAME like the original Arcade version, without any kind of advantage.
And this kind of cheating is just like, uhm ... putting a debug value for quiz games that gives you the right answer?
*basically, sprite tables written to the work RAM are then copied thru a DMA, that DMA isn't instant, it usually takes a latency of 20 to 40 ms.
Re: The official awesome replay thread
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:41 pm
by Kale
And, before I forgot, this applies to the inp he just submitted at MARP, I'm also sure he's not even aware that he's actually cheating by using that specific version.
Re: The official awesome replay thread
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:09 pm
by Zhorik
If there's no intent to be dishonest, defraud or deceive, I wouldn't call it "cheating" since cheating (at least in English) implies intent. However I agree that if the "lagless" version is "fixing" a problem that exists in the original arcade version, and is correctly emulated in standard MAME and WolfMAME, then the lagless version shouldn't be allowed for MARP submissions.
We should probably move the discussion of use of the lagless version to the Regulation Play forum.
-George
Re: The official awesome replay thread
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:31 pm
by sikraiken
Falsificare can also mean to falsify or forge. A form of cheating. What's up shmups.
OS overhead (and peripheral latency) add lag. With sprite/layer buffering removed, the lag is more accurate to what the actual PCB has since the actual PCB doesn't have to worry about OS overhead and peripheral latency.
Re: The official awesome replay thread
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:54 pm
by Kale
I don't know how you can relate falsify with cheating, but oh well, your inside jokes, your rules.
I agree 120% on what Zhorik just said. If you don't want latency just buy a CRT monitor and don't use Win 7 instead of playing around with HW rules imho ...
Re: The official awesome replay thread
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:37 pm
by MJS
The question is, how much input lag does this "lagless" mame (and the official wolfmame) have for this game?
If it is only one frame, then that's just a difference of 1/58 seconds. It's hard to beleive that makes a difference, and the fact that his replay playbacks fine on both version proves it, doesn't it?
Anyway, let's not call new marp players cheaters, he probably used that version of mame because others told him it was better.
Re: The official awesome replay thread
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:43 pm
by Kale
Even if it improves the performance by 1 / 1000th of the original Arcade it's still an hack and not how the original Arcade is intended. C'mon, you always disallowed autofire usage (and that actually CAN be mounted on real JAMMA / JVS i/o devices) then want this shit in? It's plain non-sense ...
And yes, as I've stated on a K8 thread previously, to me 20 ms doesn't make a jack as a difference, and I don't see why others are so obsessed with it but whatever. There are some current gen games that have something like 12 (twelve!) frames of lag and nobody really bothered, mind you ...
And again, I've corrected myself previously, I'm sure that Prometheus intentions weren't to really "cheat" on this. What pisses me off is really beyond that, a little step towards this direction leads us in opening a can full of worms like BeU macros, autofire usage and finally ... TAS recordings ... I hope that I'm into hiatus again when all of this happens.
Re: The official awesome replay thread
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:00 am
by sikraiken
It's not improving upon the original, it's making it comparable. Someone needs to do some tests and get some concrete numbers, somehow.
A problem that is actually serious here at MARP is the current rules for 90% minimum average speed and 95% during tournaments. It should be 99%, 90 and 95 is an absolute joke.
Re: The official awesome replay thread
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:22 am
by BBH
Kale, you're seriously overreacting to this. He is not a cheater, it is not as if using that lagless version of MAME has the ability to bestow magic and make anybody able to 2-all Dodonpachi. Prometheus has put a lot of time into learning the game. He's a legit player and shouldn't be branded as a cheater. If he's such a cheater, why has he also recorded games in WolfMAME...?
The bigger issue is that one could claim he was playing at slow speed, pausing, etc since it's not WolfMAME.
Whatever. I enjoyed watching the replay.
Re: The official awesome replay thread
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:24 am
by Novice
Prometeus is better and fair player.
at least much better than Kale.
Re: The official awesome replay thread
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:08 pm
by Kale
Yeah, I admit that I use all my skills as a MAMEdev to cheat like there's no tomorrow, because programmers aren't really able to play videogames, go figure.
Seriously, maybe yes, I'm just overacting because that "lagless" version is a lot more lame in a programming POV rather than gaming one. But whatever, for the 4th time I say that Prometeus skills are very good regardless of everything else.
A problem that is actually serious here at MARP is the current rules for 90% minimum average speed and 95% during tournaments. It should be 99%, 90 and 95 is an absolute joke.
Agreed.
Re: The official awesome replay thread
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:30 pm
by Haze
use of this hacked version should just be banned outright, it is cheating.
the fact that they *break* the video hardware emulation of the system can give other advantages on some games, it becomes more obvious which parts of the backgrounds are destroyable and such because they 'lag' behind the rest of the background when they scroll for example.
it's no different than using builds with layers and effects turned off to gain an unfair advantage. The MAME emulation is correct in normal builds.
I'd actually vote at this point for MARP to *only* allow official versions (SDL & regular) and WolfMAME going forward, other versions serve no real purpose as far as fair competition is concerned.
Re: The official awesome replay thread
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 5:07 pm
by shoesama
nimitz wrote:Anyone who thinks knowing what objects are destroyable helps in any meaningful way should try actually playing the games...
As far as fair competition, competition is fair when all the players are playing under the same rules. As it is right now someone using windows 7 with a CRT monitor and a ps/2 based controller (keyboard or I-PAC) will have a significant advantage over the majority of players, in fact a greater advantage than using a lagless version of mame.
Re: The official awesome replay thread
Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:15 am
by Zhorik
I started a thread about whether lagless MAME should be allowed for MARP submissions on the Regulation Play forum:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14771
Re: The official awesome replay thread
Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:50 am
by Kale
shoesama wrote:nimitz wrote:Anyone who thinks knowing what objects are destroyable helps in any meaningful way should try actually playing the games...
As far as fair competition, competition is fair when all the players are playing under the same rules. As it is right now someone using windows 7 with a CRT monitor and a ps/2 based controller (keyboard or I-PAC) will have a significant advantage over the majority of players, in fact a greater advantage than using a lagless version of mame.
I have WIndows 7 and, believe me, that isn't an advantage, at all. Basically it has OS video frameskip, meaning that when the system is lacking performance it "skips" frames just like MAME "autoframeskip" does. Needless to say, it's effing annoying when you are attempting to do a decent inp and the screen unexpectedly skips frames.
