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Maybe archiving is a good compromise as a general policy...

When you talk about new MAME version issues like changes to game settings and complete removals or deletions of games and their impact to MAME, the program -- I have no control over that. And neither do you!

As always from day 1, the MARP game database for regulation side of MARP, that is games that count for LB points, will mimic and follow what MAMEDEV does. You may not like that, but that is reality. The heart of the issue is clones and this goes back as far as I can remember 5 years ago in 1999, when I first brought this up. Back then, when MARP was much smaller, I think for we only needed 7 out of 11 votes for things to pass and we all agreed that CLONES SHOULD COUNT IN LB PTS. That said we needed to follow the clones as determined by MAME from version to version.

I've always thought, to have a true leaderboard, you must have a DEFINITIVE, only one version, original or clone, that should count towards the LB for points. Alas, that never happened and it's probably too much work to correct now. But anyway all these thousands of clones are hard enough to manage as is.

All the MARP game linking hinges and is based on clones. The links, the pictures, the relationship between original (master) and clones. Clones to clones, it's all figured out behind the scenes. After an update, Chad need to capture a picture and put it in MARP. If I've updated the linking to reflect a new version of MAME, and Chad hasn't put up the screen grabs, then you may see the no picture messages. It is usually fixed within a few days. So he too is highly dependent on this game relationship.

I am not about to mess with that clearly defined MAME relationship by making exceptions at MARP because someone is losing out on 100 points for one game. Who cares? Do you really care about losing LB pts?

Now if you still want to complete on "removed" games, that is no problem. I can simply archive them, just like I did for these 4 galaga clones. They are still available for viewing and posting INPs. Who knows, maybe they'll come back someday once Nicola and his deputies realize "Oh, these games we're actually in the arcades!" DUH!

As I mentioned earlier in this thread and other times before this, it used to be that since so few games were removed from MAME, I would just delete them from MARP. But in this case given the popularity of this fast shoot version of Galaga and the fact that some INPs date back to 1998, I'm not about to permanently delete these recordings.

The galaga games have been archived and if you want to compete on them fine. There are lots of reasons why games get moved to * status, hence one more reason is because MAMEDEV has chosen to no longer support the game in their latest version of MAME.

As Weehawk stated: archiving, and not deletion, is the correct compromise.

Pat wrote:When you talk about new MAME version issues like changes to game settings and complete removals or deletions of games and their impact to MAME, the program -- I have no control over that. And neither do you!

Of course.

Pat wrote:As always from day 1, the MARP game database for regulation side of MARP, that is games that count for LB points, will mimic and follow what MAMEDEV does

That, on the other hand we could change, but I agree with you that we should not...for reasons you explained in more technical detail than I could have. Straying too from what MAME supports is asking for headaches down the road.

Pat wrote:I've always thought, to have a true leaderboard, you must have a DEFINITIVE, only one version, original or clone, that should count towards the LB for points. Alas, that never happened and it's probably too much work to correct now. But anyway all these thousands of clones are hard enough to manage as is.

Agreed again. What does the leaderboard in it's current form show? Who's best at Mahjong and Space Invaders clones? But as you point out, there's not much that could be done to fix it in that respect. Anyway the leaderboard is topic enough for a whole debate in itself...

Pat wrote:Now if you still want to complete on "removed" games, that is no problem. I can simply archive them, just like I did for these 4 galaga clones. They are still available for viewing and posting INPs. Who knows, maybe they'll come back someday once Nicola and his deputies realize "Oh, these games we're actually in the arcades!" DUH!

Thanks, Pat. I'm more convinced than ever that this is the best course.

And thanks for all the work you do maintaining the database. I'm sure we only see the tip of the iceberg as to what a chore it is.

mahlemiut wrote:Also, Pacman speedup cheats will be gone too, if they aren't already, as they are nothing more than an ugly in-driver hack. Same thing may happen to Run Like Hell too. Here's hoping.

I don't understand this. There were and are lots of turbo pacmans, mspac etc, games in the arcades.

Perhaps it was a hack...but it became popular in the arcades...especially turbo-mspac....so who cares if a separate rom set or a hack to the game? It's a game on it's own merits either way.

Most mspac machines you will find around nowadays, especially the 20th anniv mspac/galaga ones, have mspac in turbo mode.

That is essentially what the speedup dip switch in those games gives you.

Why would they want to do away with that?

The run like hell cheat in Track-n-Field and other similar games I can understand...as you never saw an arcade game with that active or as an option.

LN2 wrote:That is essentially what the speedup dip switch in those games gives you.

There is no speed-up DIP switch. They are nothing more than ugly, in-driver hacks.

Pat, archiving is a compromise for what? Not giving lb points? Does it really make so big difference. For me bigger difference is that linking does not work anymore... Will linking work when pictures are taken?? Why to archive and remove those pictures first place to cause more work.

I don't see marpers saying that these games should be removed or "archived" at marp. It's only you Pat who has opinion like that in this thread. You are not all marpers
Also talking about banning all clones clearly tells us what you think, but it's only your opinion. Why in the first place did you make a fuss about leaderboardpoints for clones 5 years ago.
Saying that there should be only one parent rom to give lb points is your opinion, I think quite differently. Popular games have usually many clones, as not so popular do not. Having first at Galaga is not same as having first at...umm...legend of success joe, heh.

Also following blindly mamedevs strange clone and dipswitch whims has no support from me.

So I still think they should not be deleted or archived, what do other marpers think?

maybe we should have vote on this. A 50-50 one. This has not been voted before, afaik.

TJT

mahlemiut wrote:

LN2 wrote:That is essentially what the speedup dip switch in those games gives you.

There is no speed-up DIP switch. They are nothing more than ugly, in-driver hacks.

Mspacfast at arcade had extra chip to make it fast, right. At mame it's indriver cheat, right...Not really different or extra romset...as it maybe should be for "correct" emulation.
The way how it's done technically at mame is irrelevant, u geeks The fact that there were mspacfasts at arcades is relevant, for Marp.

The TJT wrote:Mspacfast at arcade had extra chip to make it fast, right. At mame it's indriver cheat, right...Not really different or extra romset...as it maybe should be for "correct" emulation.

yes, if that is the direction the dev team is going...where the next version will support mspacfst pacfast type clones as separate rom sets for the turbo versions of those games, that's fine.

Barry, sure I understand it's an in-driver hack for mame. It was some kind of chip replacement/add-on "hack" for the arcades.

Perhaps they just need to stop calling it a dip switch in mame...cuz yes, it's not a dip switch.

*** PL ***, the Galaga Fast Shoot was removed from MAME as it can be achieved with a small cheat-hack.

I don't think that the MAME devs are denying that it was in the arcades - just tidying up MAME and reducing unneeded ROM sets.

Instead of archieving galagads, why not create a new MARP clone called GALAGA-FASTSHOOTCHEAT (or something), as with the pacman games (pacman-fast), which allows recordings with the cheat active?

Kranser.

mahlemiut wrote:I don't think any game should be archived or deleted if it is removed from MAME.

We tell people to use an older if a game is playbackable in a recent version, why should this be any different? Are we going to delete all those *pac*-fast inps when that hack gets removed?

If the pacman -fast hack is removed from the main game, it will still have an equivalent -cheat option to achieve the same effect (and you need to use -cheat anyway to activate the current -fast option!), so why not leave the pacman -fast clones and put in the rules that the -cheat code for fast pacman is allowed. Of course, it could be tricky preventing use of other -cheat options (maybe mahlemiut could add an option to WolfMAME which lets the replayer know which -cheat options were enabled in a recording?].

Kranser.

I'll have to agreed with TJT about why Mame Dev. shouldn't remove the galaga's clones whenever if is a hack or not. I think the Mame Dev. want to remove those clones and hack if there is a copyright changes not any different types of gameplay that the original doesn't have.

Thanks, PL for not archiving the 4 galaga's clones for the future reference. I did had problems finding the old Gauntlet's inp since they added more clones and change of romsets. Looking up the archive to find the old recording likes Lord Gaz and LSD that was not in Gauntlet archive, but it can be found under the old romset name. In the future reference, some the newer Marper may come this site to find some of older inp may be not there whenever they were remove or change of old romset to newer one.

I highly doubtful if Mame Dev. decided to get rid of the MsPac/Pacman turbo or cheat hacks on the next version. I would be surprised if MsPac Champ/ Zola Pac was ever removed in the future version whenever the Mame Dev. decide whenever that game is hack or not.

Later,

NotMan

ln2 and kranser bring up an excellent point which is galagads is really a hack not unlike the speed-up cheat in pacman

So I've made the following change...
galagads -> galaga-fast "Galaga (fast shoot)"

Archived games that were once clones cannot be linked back to the original -- never will be because there is no reference file that tracks their historical relationship across all the prior MAME versions.

kranser wrote:If the pacman -fast hack is removed from the main game, it will still have an equivalent -cheat option to achieve the same effect (and you need to use -cheat anyway to activate the current -fast option!), so why not leave the pacman -fast clones and put in the rules that the -cheat code for fast pacman is allowed.

yes, you have to enable cheats to set that speed up dip switch to on, but then you can turn the cheats off and relaunch the game and it will play with that dip switch still set to on so play in turbo mode with cheats disabled.

This allows you to play the game in fast mode using wolfmame etc.

Doesn't wolfmame have some feature where you can't record with cheats on? ..or does it allow that but only notify the viewer on playback the cheats were on?

Ok, if so, then with this cheat on for pacman, does it work the same way as the speed up dip switch? Are you accelerated to same fast speed? Are you like that at all times or will you have to hold down some button to keep going fast? I'm guessing you would have to keep a button held down at all times during the gameplay.

It seems to me to just be the fact they call it a dip switch that's the issue. Fine...call the dip switch "game speed" where the selections are "regular" and "turbo". It is essentially 2 games in 1 for each of those rom sets.

That would be analogous to the real turbo systems where many did have a simple switch/dip switch added to break contact with the add-on/piggy-back daughter chip that was on the logic board.

Pat, I'm very unhappy with your decision to archive those games removed from mame.

If that is the final decision... I will loose lb points for
1. place at nebulbee
1. place at galaga84
2. place at galagab2

Also my lb position shows I have 48 first places now, not 50 anymore. That really sucks. Also I think my lb average drops a bit, I think.

I don't really care for leaderboard points, because lb does not show your gaming skills and is not good giving lot of overall points to players who have many 5 places or so. In short, lb position does not tell how good a player someone is.

But I DO CARE about lb showing your average and first to third places a player has.

Also when those games are not linked to screenshot, nobody will even find out there was a game called nebulbee which I had first place.
Maybe somebody will find those games that includes "galaga"in their rom name with search...but why use search when have screenshot-linking.

***PL*** wrote:ln2 and kranser bring up an excellent point which is galagads is really a hack not unlike the speed-up cheat in pacman

What is the point there?
All clones are hacks. If not private hacks, then corporate hacks.

So you think a mame driver hack is better than a rom hack. I miss your point completely.

Removing a game from mame is not ANY different from removing an old rom and having new one instead.
Example: Marble2.zip romset was previously marble.zip(old). Now that marble(old) romset does not exist at later mame versions, but my marble(old) inp is now marble2 inp. Recent mame don't have support for that old rom, but I get my lb points anyway.

***PL*** wrote: So I've made the following change...
galagads -> galaga-fast "Galaga (fast shoot)"

It is not linked to galaga screenshot, nobody find that clone with clicking galaga screenshot. Why it is not linked?
Also why this is different to other galaga clones, why it's not *ed and gives lb points(and first place, and average) while other removed galaga clones do not.

***PL*** wrote: Archived games that were once clones cannot be linked back to the original -- never will be because there is no reference file that tracks their historical relationship across all the prior MAME versions.

That is not true.

What reference file you are talking about? Why archive these games in first place. You like to make short answers without really giving exact information. Does that give more authority?
You do have for example paperboy-es, paperbr1-es etc...which are linked to paperboy romset and can be searched by clicking screenshot.
There surely is not a rom at mame called paperboy-es.

Those galaga and poleposition clones can be linked to parent rom by simply innovative naming. couple more game categories, like splitting games.

TJT

P.S. hard for me to find motivation to submit at new galaga romsets...maybe they get removed later. Same with parent romsets, they can be replaced and removed later. So why submit if recordings might get archived or totally removed from marp. F**ing annoying.

That is all what I'm objecting. I don't like scenario that if I stay away from marp for a while, when I come back my recordings are removed or archived...or beaten by autofire etc. Why f**k I have to allways defend my scores writing this kind of marp-policy bullsh*t!

I was lucky gallag was not removed from mame. That is the second highest galaga score at marp after Krogmans 5M. If my best would have been at other romset, now it would be archived.

We need a vote. Patrick can not decide these things by himself. Especially when it seems that he alone wants to remove and archive, based on faulty logic and strange motives as I see it.

Tommi