Knockout - future tournaments

destructor · Post by **destructor** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:13 am

After last K tournaments I think that Knockout Tournaments can be shorter and more 'aggressive'.

In K5 in after qualifying we have 45 players. Then we can start head-to-head round immediately in round 2 (after round 1 we cut players to 32):
Round 1 = 45 players (last 13 is out)
2 (head to head) = 32
3 (head to head) = 16
4 (head to head) = 8
5 (head to head) = 4
6 (head to head) = final

6 weeks only.
For players more than 64 we can cut to 64 players after round 1 or immediately to 32. For 128 the same.
No winner or loser bracket, this option made tournament too long and no aggressive, very quiet. For quiet play is MARP Tournament not Knockout I think

Why immediately start head-to-head rounds? Because not all players (more weak or with less free time) have chance in their life to play in head-to-head rounds. Give them chance.

Maybe next Knockout coordinators will found something interesting in my post.

Post by **gameboy9** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:33 am

I have a couple thoughts myself...

March Madness thought:
Slight variation to Destructor's thought. Randomly put everybody into four "regions", then seed everybody based on how good they are. Blah blah blah. Then play head-to-head, as destructor said. Also have a bracket competition.

World Cup variation:
Place everybody into groups of four, play round robin, then top person in each group plus extras to make it the top 16 advance to single-elimination final.

More as I think of them...

RAX · Post by **RAX** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:23 pm

I was waiting for the end of K5 to write my opinions, but since you have already started:

1) 1 day of stop between turns is useful, keep it. The duration of 7 days/turn is good too
2) good idea destructor, worst scores can be cut even in the qualification round, i.e. saying "first 32/64/ecc. pass to next round"
3) only 1 or 2 elimination rounds to get to 16 players
4) winners/loosers is *good*

. Yes, it's longer, but If we optimize the matchups we can save at least a week (here is an example of brackets). Winner of winners bracket should wait two turns before knowing his final opponent, but it all lasts 1 turn less than K5 (7 turns instead of 8 )
5) perhaps we could give a different(lower) handicap to the looser's bracket finalist to win the final round, but I can't imagine a good proposal. Anyway playing two games having to win in both is too unbalanced IMO (although it's better than nothing

)

I see this wouldn't make the tournament that shorter (2 or 3 turns less K5), but you can think about it

destructor · Post by **destructor** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:03 pm

I'm totally against losers/winners brackets. It's contradictory with word 'knockout'. I remember when I play first time in K tournament, head-to-head round was fully tension, one lost and you are out. In K5 I didn't fear lost because I know that I will play in losers bracket still, not fun.

---------------------------
Next thing that players hide scores until last minute

I have proposal here too. 2 proposals. Round has 7 days. Day 3 and 6 can be bonus days. What bonus? Percentage bonus to final score in day 7. Bonus in day 3 = 5%, in day 6 = 10%.
First proposal is global for all players can be used for non head-to-head rounds and/or for head-to-head rounds, second is for head-to-head rounds only.

Examples.

Proposal 1:
Example
Player 1 score in day 3 = 100 points (bonus = 5%)
Player 2 = 40 points
Player 3 = 20 points

Player 1 score in day 6 = 120
Player 2 = 100
Player 3 = 200 (bonus = 10%)

Then for Player 1 bonus is 5%, Player 2 - 10%.

Final scores (after day 7) are:
Player 1 = 200
Player 2 = 150
Player 3 = 250

Now we must add bonus for players 1 and 3:
Player 1 = 200 + 5% (5% from final score, not from day 3) = 210
Player 2 = 205
Player 3 = 250 + 10% = 275

--------------

Proposal 2:
Example
Player 1 play against Player 2
Player 3 play against Player 4
Bonuses are for pairs.

Player 1 score in day 3 = 100 points (bonus = 5%)
Player 2 = 40 points
Player 3 = 20 points
Player 4 = 80 points (bonus = 5%. Score is higher than opponent - Player 3)

Player 1 score in day 6 = 120 (bonus 10%)
Player 2 = 100
Player 3 = 200 (bonus = 10%)
Player 4 = 120

Then for Player 1 bonus is 5%+10%=15%, Player 3 - 10%, Player 4 - 5%.

Final scores (after day 7) are:
Player 1 = 200
Player 2 = 150
Player 3 = 250
Player 4 = 260

Now we must add bonus for players
Player 1 = 200 + 15% = 230
Player 2 = 150
Player 3 = 250 + 10% = 275
Player 4 = 260 + 5% = 273

Then Player 2 lost and Player 4 lost too.
------------------------------------

Maybe it looks a bit confused but really it is very simple.

Phil Lamat · Post by **Phil Lamat** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:42 am

I agree with Des, loser bracket is useless, when you're out you're out, and it makes the tourney toooooooo much long.

The point I disagree is face-to-face very early.
On the contrary, I would prefer "elimination by mass" till, let say, the last 4 : top 32, top 24, top 16, top 8, top4 ... then semi-final and finals.

To be in the top xx is much more exciting than playing against only one opponent. And when a player makes a very good score, it's not rare to see his opponent letting down (usually no score uploaded).
The actual tourney is a perfect example : all players were very excited at the beginning (massive uploads), end of tourney isn't really exciting to watch : 2 last weeks without real fight between 2 guys.

And to force players to upload fast (and good scores), instead of bonus points, we could simply "knockout" 1 or 2 players before end of week :
example : if 16 players play to be in top 8, after 4days we can eliminate the 16th, after 5days the 15th, after 6days the 14th, and only keep the top 8 (on 13) the 7th day.

destructor · Post by **destructor** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:50 am

Phil Lamat wrote:The point I disagree is face-to-face very early.
On the contrary, I would prefer "elimination by mass" till, let say, the last 4 : top 32, top 24, top 16, top 8, top4 ... then semi-final and finals.

To be in the top xx is much more exciting than playing against only one opponent.

We are different here. For me more exciting is playing against one opponent only

Phil Lamat · Post by **Phil Lamat** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:02 am

destructor wrote:For me more exciting is playing against one opponent only

Where is the excitment if your opponent doesnt' upload anything ??

destructor · Post by **destructor** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:46 am

Phil Lamat wrote:
destructor wrote:For me more exciting is playing against one opponent only
Where is the excitment if your opponent doesnt' upload anything ??

Yes, this is not exciting. I say about opponent who PLAY. And maybe will not be 'upload anything' if players will have one opponent only, not 40.
This is why I think about chance to play in head-to-head rounds for more players.
And you newer know if you opponent upload something in last minute or not

TRB_MetroidTeam · Post by **TRB_MetroidTeam** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:50 pm

Hi guys... my viewpoint...

1 - Very good selection of games on K5;

2 - Too long tournament! "32, 24, 16..." is no good! 50% elimination is good!

3 - Maximum 2 "Elimination" rounds would be good... and start Head-to-Head as soon as possible is good.

4 - Loser's bracket or not? Well... seems good, but if NOT, like Destructor said, would be a bit better IMO.

5 - The current GRAND FINAL rules is not good. The best is: "In the 1st final, if W defeat L... tournament over. If L defeat W, so play the 2nd final"

6 - To add points or percentage (bonus) is not bad, but in some games it can be very bad... let's use IROBOT scores for example... very tough scores.

7 - In Destructor example, why the 6th day have more importance than 3th? Bonus is not good for this competition. And in Knockouts, DECAs and Tournaments, I think we will ever have the "hidden scores" problems. (PS.: Maybe Torunament, with "10, 9, 8..." score system and any special rule, would be safe here).

8 - "Free day"? No idea if good or bad.

TRB_MetroidTeam · Post by **TRB_MetroidTeam** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:53 pm

Hmm... like RAX said... maybe would be better to discuss about next competition AFTER the current is over. It can looks like "less important" to the Grand Final that is coming...

To the players... "Are you ready? Are you ready? FIGHT!"

Have a nice match guys!

Marco Marocco · Post by **Marco Marocco** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:10 pm

Nice topic.
It can suggest interesting ideas to the new K.O. coordinators ...

destructor · Post by **destructor** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:19 am

TRB_MetroidTeam wrote:7 - In Destructor example, why the 6th day have more importance than 3th?

Because in 6th day know more secrets and interesting methods and none will want to show them. Showing secrets one day before final day is very risk.

TRB_MetroidTeam · Post by **TRB_MetroidTeam** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:53 pm

destructor wrote:
TRB_MetroidTeam wrote:7 - In Destructor example, why the 6th day have more importance than 3th?
Because in 6th day know more secrets and interesting methods and none will want to show them. Showing secrets one day before final day is very risk.

Maybe... but if the 3rd day have more bonus than 6th, the good scores/techinques would be revealed early...

Well... I yet think bonus is not a good idea here...

destructor · Post by **destructor** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:58 pm

TRB_MetroidTeam wrote:
destructor wrote:
TRB_MetroidTeam wrote:7 - In Destructor example, why the 6th day have more importance than 3th?
Because in 6th day know more secrets and interesting methods and none will want to show them. Showing secrets one day before final day is very risk.
Maybe... but if the 3rd day have more bonus than 6th, the good scores/techinques would be revealed early...

Well... I yet think bonus is not a good idea here...

I personally will not show extra techniques at 3rd day.

When we use bonus then stupid 48 rule is useless. Why stupid? Because every man can set clock in PC.

TRB_MetroidTeam · Post by **TRB_MetroidTeam** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:51 pm

Bye the way... to "force" players to play DAILY, can discourage a lot of player to participate on the competition. Like I already said, I generally play strenght only 2 days by week.

In the other side, on 2005's Tournament 9, Magical Crystals was an extra game, available for playing during only 24 hours. I liked that round, just because I was fully able to play on that day, but other players not... and it is unfair.

Destructor... I would love to compare my score with your score if we played during the SAME time... it would be the most excitting way, and that "hidden scores" stuff is solved... however, if we run a competition (Daily Challenge Championship?) during one week, with one game each 24 hours, would be very good, very excitting, however I don't know how many players would enter on the competition... this is the dark side.

And about the "stupid" rule, once that the tournaments are just for fun... who would do it? Like K5 coordinators said:
"-HAVE FUN! That's what we play games for, to have fun, right? Don't get TOO caught up in the competition and start verbally abusing other players, either in your score comments or on the forums. Nobody likes a bad sport."