[poll canceled]New rule, using multiple button mapping

[BlackTMH]

You affirm that defautlt settings in mame is bad? And programmers of mame makes bad settings? Your's settings are better? Then why U didn't write own emulator with yours own "better" settings? Better write to Mame programmers and tell him to disable multimapping keys because it's wrong and this is your wish.. I'ts curious what they to tell you.

[Frankie]

You affirm that defautlt settings in mame is bad? And programmers of mame makes bad settings? Your's settings are better? Then why U didn't write own emulator with yours own "better" settings? Better write to Mame programmers and tell him to disallow multimapping keys because it's wrong and this is your wish.. I'ts curious what they to tell you.

Look, just because they enter a feature in MAME doesn't not mean that we must take use of it. Its all a question of if its cheating or not, and if we get the real arcade experience. Mapping the same key to do two different actions at the same time is cheating. The MAME developers doesn't care if people can cheat in the games or not, but we here at MARP do.

[BlackTMH]

Cheating is directly inserting some values in memory. As long I don't change values in game's memory I didn't cheat. How I can do a cheat using only controllers? It's crazy ...

[BlackTMH]

Yours worlds

(...) Mapping the same key to do two different actions at the same time is cheating. (...)

is like:

"Using diagonal dirrections in arcade machine is cheting, on tournament please using only standard dirrections"

I had one more question... Pressing both buttons in same time is cheating too ? Egz. When pressing B1 to memory goes x08 , when B2 to memory goes x0F , that when to memory put x17 form controllers that's cheat ? R U serious?

[destructor]

Cheat is when bar chief disable buttons in arcade panel. For example: disable magic in Shinobi, bombs in Ajax ...

People, don't fear open control panel and change buttons, connect two or more buttons ...

[Frankie]

I had one more question... Pressing both buttons in same time is cheating too ? Egz. When pressing B1 to memory goes x08 , when B2 to memory goes x0F , that when to memory put x17 form controllers that's cheat ? R U serious?

Of course its not cheating pressing both buttons at the same time, but mapping one button to do those actions, so that you only have to press one button instead of two is cheating. It makes the game easier in my opinion, and that is cheating.

I'm shooting myself in the foot here. I hate playing using the keyboard, and I also hate all sorts of new modern Joysticks, and can't afford any Hotrod or ArcadeX or whatever. I use an 80's digital Joystick, and if it needs more than one button, I use the Fire button on Joystick, and the Space bar, and you don't hear me complaining

[BlackTMH]

U have right, it's easiest, but..

If my keboard wasn't have key-collisions, i wasn't newer use multimapping. Ex. In MK2 I play at cursors & numeric (more players play at MK like that). It's immposibble do "slide" without mapping [in one time Key Left+Num1+Num3+Num 5], it's impossible do finish movie in "deadpool" [Press & Hold Num1 & Num4, Go Foward, Duck, & press Num 4]. This example is only for this game, but there is a lot of others with this problem.

And that is the question. It's easiest with mapping, but impossible to do without one. And what is better?

They says "buy better keyboard" or arcade stick. My keyboard cost $10, very good keyboard cost in pl even $55 [256 MB that's more requaired for my PC costs $30, i haven't money even for that] Even when I buy very good keyboard i haven't certitude that keboard hasn't key-collisions. I haven't chanse to test it before buying.

That i think this rule says "Rich can play with full game controls, poor with only part. If U want full game controls, pay for it.."

[Frankie]

We are in the same boot, but unlike you I'm a crap player, but when it comes to the money thing, I also have problems, otherwise I would have thrown this 700MHz PC out the window, and you don't hear me complaining.

However, I must say that I don't play fighters, I'm even more crap at those as on other games

Maybe we can accept it where its needed, and disallow it where its definately not needed like in Scramble games and such stuff.

[Pegasus]

Hello all,

you guys probably don't know me because I'm mostly whatching inps and I'm not a very active member at MARP (2 lousy recordings - would like to change that though). But following this heated discussion, I like to tell my viewpoint.

First of all, I voted 'no' in the now-cancelled poll. Although mapping macros and key-combos to a single key is clearly bad, I feel the wording of the rule is a little too strong.

While I don't use it myself I have watched for example the Xevious-recording by WRX2, whitch is pure excellence. It would get zeroed because they map both buttons to one key.
But, I'm sure purely out of convenience. You wouldn't even gain the fast-firing aspect on Xevious. It would not make a difference and it IS a pain to press both buttons together all the time. Same goes for Gradius. Well, surely WRX2 would't understand why their record gets zeroed after so LONG a time. Would be a pity to lose it, no?

It is a good thing to prevent abuse, still tolerance is a wise thing, too. I say it should be judged if there is unfair advantage by double-mapping. Make special rules.

But I read that you seasoned MARP-members are mostly thinking this is a bad thing, and it's you that keep this site alive.
Against most of the arguments nothing can be said. I have to agree, and so I will vote to add the rule in the next poll.

(But, come on there must be a way to keep some of the great old records on this site)

[BlackTMH]

Although mapping macros and key-combos to a single key is clearly bad

U've right in this point, I don't like players who use this one, but multimapping keys isn't macro or combo. U mistake two different things. Dissasolve macros & combos binded to one button, i will vote for yes for it.

And how many this vote will be canceled? It's like admin doesn't like ressult of this one, then cancel it. Better thing to do was be still allow voting, and when result will be "yes" create new vote what allow and what dissalow..


P.S. Maby we need vote how many votes can be cancelled from administrators?

[mahlemiut]

You affirm that defautlt settings in mame is bad? And programmers of mame makes bad settings? Your's settings are better? Then why U didn't write own emulator with yours own "better" settings? Better write to Mame programmers and tell him to disable multimapping keys because it's wrong and this is your wish.. I'ts curious what they to tell you.

What part of "the game doesn't use the standard directional inputs" did you not understand? It does not matter what they are set to.
MAMEdev doesn't care what we think anyway. They, on purpose, implemented a simple way to continue recording after quitting. Their view is, "If people are going to cheat, they're going to cheat". The best we can do is to reduce cheating as much as we can.

[BlackTMH]

Mapping the same key to do two different actions at the same time isn't cheating.

did you not understand?

And You?

[BlackTMH]

And at fist, please give me definition of "cheat" in game. Without it, we can't say what is cheating and what isn't.

[mahlemiut]

One more thing, I have done a check on two of WRX2's Xevious inps (xeviousb and xeviousc), and yes it seems quite clear now, through some testing, that they do use both buttons mapped to one key.

[Weehawk]

And at fist, please give me definition of "cheat" in game. Without it, we can't say what is cheating and what isn't.

Fortunately, there need be no philosophical debate on this issue. This is why most games played competitively have rules.

For a game with rules governing it:

* Doing anything which is not in violation of the rules is not cheating.

* Doing anything which is in violation of the rules is cheating.

MARP Rule 2 states:

Code: Select all

MARP's goal is to emulate the experience of "watching a virtual master play an arcade game", true to the arcade experience, as closely as possible.

While this is rather vague, it is my opinion that the examples Tommi gave in the poll question are in violation of that rule.

And therefore "cheating" to answer your question.

I had hoped making the language more precise would clarify the issue for other members who may disagree with my interpretion of the above quoted rule, but understand: even if the poll fails after all, the examples Tommi gave are still, in my opinion, against the rules.