Leaderboard Change Proposals - Discussion

boxster · Post by **boxster** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:49 am

Do you want a new system that hoses 50+ just cuz of those 3-4 ABC uploaders? If they actually got quite high on the leaderboard so what? They have enough info there to clearly make the conclusion they are only there cuz of massive numbers of submissions, not cuz of tons of first through third place scores many a high percentage of the top score.

I have to agree. Looking at the top 30 or so, there are really only a couple of posters who have taken the quantity over quality approach to ridiculous levels to move up the leaderboard, and it's pretty easy to pick them out based on their averages.

I guess maybe I just don't take that as personally as some people do. Geez, if someone wants to play 1000+ games just to get into the top rankings, so be it. Maybe they deserve a little credit for perseverance!

My opinion is that I'd rather have them included than to discourage them from posting by shutting them out of the leaderboard. The variety of skill levels and submissions is what I think is so great about MARP. Frankly, I don't want to see nothing but perfect gameplay - I'll never be able to emulate it, so I'd prefer to have the option of seeing some people closer to my skill level!

Obviously, some people have different opinions and would prefer that MARP be only populated by the best of the best. No, thanks.

It's not like we can't differentiate between the quantity folks and the overtly talented at a glance.

LN2 · Post by **LN2** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:24 pm

boxster, I just wanted to say I agree. Perhaps others will consider this also before deciding which option to go with.

I think even having the placing points based leaderboard will result in average gamers who typically can get only a few top 3 scores but mostly 4th and beyond scores will lose interest if those scores don't count toward leaderboard placement.

Yes, not everyone thinks like this, but I think more think this way than MARP is aware of. It is a shame most members don't really check or post to the forums to have their voice heard.

Perhaps within the NEWS of the site a URL to a poll here can be given.

The poll can be simple....asking for opinions of the leaderboard.

Something along the lines of:

What point and ordering system would you like to see for the MARP leaderboard?

1) I like score based points. The current points system seems good to me(percentage point scale)

2) I like points based on score. However, the current system could use some changes(I'll post my idea(s).)

3) I want place points awarded only for the top 3 or 5 scores. Actual scores don't matter for the leaderboard, only place.

4) I don't care about the leaderboard.

That's it. No fancy propositions to go through for this poll.
Even though we have discussed this issue quite a bit in the forums, it seems there really are only 4-5 members who have given input. That's not enough.

However, far more than 5 vote on polls. A poll with the URL and question in the NEWS of MARP might get far more members checking it out that and voting on it.

Then from that opinion you at least know what direction to go.
This might be the only poll you need also. I don't think you would need a poll to approve formula #1 versis formula #2 etc.

Each formula affects the different view groups anyway...so from that poll result you could figure out the right balance if a balanced method seemed necessary.

tar · Post by **tar** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:30 pm

Buttermaker:Logical/Spock/Star Trek
LN2:You could write an impressive facts document.
TJT:Great catsbee , galaga - tried to trick wolf 78 to playback 1.5mil on new galaga 8,000kb .inp failed.
JTC:I am still upset over ripoff!
SJV:Devils never win in the end.

boxster · Post by **boxster** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:14 pm

LN2 wrote:Perhaps within the NEWS of the site a URL to a poll here can be given.

Definitely. A direct link (to the poll) on the main News page would be great. It would be much more likely to draw in voters and comments from people who visit MARP a lot, but don't happen to visit the forums as often.

Buttermaker · Post by **Buttermaker** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 7:46 pm

The leaderboard is not the essence of MARP.

boxster · Post by **boxster** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:27 pm

Buttermaker wrote:The leaderboard is not the essence of MARP.

Nor did anyone say that it was. If you believe that it is not important, however, you are seriously underestimating the competitiveness of the average person.

People are obsessed with statistics, lists, and rankings. Just look at sports fans....

Besides, if the leaderboard wasn't important to anyone, it wouldn't generate such vociferous debate.

Buttermaker · Post by **Buttermaker** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:42 pm

You either haven't read my posts about this topic or you didn't understand them.

Zwaxy · Post by **Zwaxy** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:38 pm

Buttermaker wrote:You either haven't read my posts about this topic or you didn't understand them.

I've read your posts in this thread. I've not understood them all though...

Buttermaker wrote:
[...] not making any change to the current system of awarding leaderboard points.
This is unacceptable and should not be an option.

I don't understand why you don't think that leaving the leaderboard exactly how it currently is should be an option.

Buttermaker wrote:We're doing all this here to get rid of that system.

I thought the point of this discussion was to decide what is the most suitable way of scoring the leaderboard, which isn't necessarily the same thing. I don't understand why 'we' want to get rid of the existing system.

Buttermaker wrote:
Weehawk wrote:The only way to prove that it is unacceptable to the community is to include it as an option...and for people to vote for something else.
Common sense already proves that it is unacceptable.

I don't understand your point about common sense proving it.

You're right; the leaderboard isn't the essence of MARP. But it is a significant part of it; a part that I consider brings people back to MARP time and again. I agree with boxster's comments about competitiveness.

boxster · Post by **boxster** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:46 pm

Buttermaker wrote:You either haven't read my posts about this topic or you didn't understand them.

Oh, yeah. That must be it. I must have misunderstood, "The leaderboard is not the essence of MARP." How silly of me to misunderstand a vague statement made in response to apparently nothing in particular.

If you were somehow trying to reinforce a point you previously made, you failed. That statement is your opinion. I have given you mine.

It is also your opinion that 3rd place be the cutoff for the leaderboard. I have quite clearly explained why my position differs from yours, and why I believe that cutting off leaderboard points at 3rd place is not good for MARP, in general.

Or, perhaps you didn't understand my posts.

Buttermaker · Post by **Buttermaker** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:05 pm

boxster wrote:Oh, yeah. That must be it. I must have misunderstood, "The leaderboard is not the essence of MARP." How silly of me to misunderstand a vague statement made in response to apparently nothing in particular.

posts = plural

Or, perhaps you didn't understand my posts.

I could easily refute the arguments you made but I'm tired of repeating myself.

boxster · Post by **boxster** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:34 pm

I could easily refute the arguments you made but I'm tired of repeating myself.

Ah, condescension. How nice.

Have a nice day up there in the clouds.

Buttermaker · Post by **Buttermaker** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:52 pm

boxster wrote:Have a nice day up there in the clouds.

There are worse places one's head could be.

QRS · Post by **QRS** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 2:46 am

Maybe we all should try and accept other peoples opinions here? Even those that are quite the opposite of your own.

DRN · Post by **DRN** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:09 am

<RANT>

Funny, I thought this was a leaderboard that nobody 'cares about'

Buttermaker - Just because you don't agree with the leaderboard it doesnt mean that other people may want to keep it in it's current form. One line replies that translate into 'you're wrong' don't really help.
There are plenty of people here who disagree with your thoughts and you'll have to accept that.

Ok, my personal opinon on the matter. I'm not bothered, seriously. I'm far to wrapped up in real life to sit down and sift through all these different percentage systems and formulas to find a different solution. Who cares? It's not the end of the world, it's just meant to be a bit of fun.

Are things that bad that it needs an overhaul, REALLY???

This could go on forever and it has already gone on too long in my opinion, so if you want to change it then let's just put it to a vote (say 5 propositions) and be done with it.

</RANT>

tar · Post by **tar** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:16 am

Zwaxy [i]on page 4 of leaderboard[/i] wrote: I also quite liked the "use the current system but make the 15% decay cumulative - 100%, 85%, 70%, 55%, ..." idea. That only awards points for the top 7 scores. That means the site can accomodate no more than 7 ABC uploaders before they start having to fight each other for points.

I do not have a problem with someone uploading 9th place on space echo.
Just makes the 1st place look even better.

JTC has an invisible post on page 4 of leaderboard topic.

DRN is right.
" I'm far to wrapped up in real life to sit down and sift through all these different percentage systems and formulas to find a different solution."

I feel the same way on one hand , but marp gives us something to work with and control. Maybe we can forget real life for a little while or perhaps it is practice for decision making , competition and social conduct. I like video games = computer mathematics + visual art form.

boxster: good work on asterock and delta race.