About new rules for new tricks.

[LN2]

zlk, fine even at that level, but that's not the same as changing the controller sensitivity so the game plays differently.

Your analogy would be equivalent to your mouse or a key on your keyboard starting to not function correctly so you quickly swap it with another mouse or keyboard or quickly try and clean that key/mouse so it's working better again. I don't think MARP has any problem with that kind of thing. I don't have any problem with players doing that kind of thing. There would be no way to tell anyway if they did a USB device switch.

That's not the same as changing the configuration of what the keys do or their sensitivities as far as analog response in games. I think TG definitely wouldn't allow that. I don't know of any analog games that have been marathoned anyway where sensitivity of this type even comes into play. Maybe Star Wars has been slightly marathoned but that doesn't work well enough in mame anyway for that to matter.

Yes, there are differences in the types of controllers players even use for mame. However, if the sensitivities within the game settings are set up the same way, then the game itself is playing the same way...even though some controllers would give you better control than others...which might make execution of some moves easier, it's not changing the actual game at all.

TG has allowed many things for older marathon records that were actually quite lenient. I know of a couple where there was a power glitch/outage for a second where the game was reset and he was allowed to just quickly start a new game and add the 2 scores together. It was a game that awarded extra men so many points so in starting a new game he actually lost tons of extra men he had built up. I think he only lasted 90 minutes on that new play...but the 2 scores were added together to give him the actual score for submission.

TG has gotten more strict now as many have abused what was allowed in the past or just fudged scores etc. so TG isn't lenient about much anymore. They also actually discourage marathon attempts now also except in special cases.

Let's stop being nitpicky about the logistics of what is being said above.
Even if you say this part of it and that part of it are ok, the trick itself for Cameltry is still there...when it isn't without a modified controller.

I'm actually finding it hard to believe that it seems many in this thread actually support playing Cameltry in the manner Novice's inp shows. It's cool for tricks and fun, but not for high score records.

There are many things in games banned here at MARP by special rules that are far less of an effect overall to the game score, and how it's played etc. versus this Cameltry trick to warp through walls.

[mahlemiut]

I agree that controller sensitivity shouldn't be changed during a game, but I do believe that you should be able choose the sensitivity that you want to use beforehand. There is no way that every single Camel Try cart (I'm assuming Taito F2 is cart-based like F3, or at least similar, but I could be very wrong) is used in an original cabinet with and original controller. As Hisa has said, different controllers will have different sensitivity.

[LN2]

There is no way that every single Camel Try cart (I'm assuming Taito F2 is cart-based like F3, or at least similar, but I could be very wrong) is used in an original cabinet with and original controller. As Hisa has said, different controllers will have different sensitivity.

For any contest at an event all would be using the same machine so whatever controller settings it had wouldn't matter much...all are playing the same game..same controller. For high scores/records, there has to be a standard where you know someone playing a certain game in 1 location versus another location is actually playing the same game. For some games that requires adding special rules so the games played in different locations when played by those special rules are as identical in gameplay as possible. For games where that isn't possible records for those games mean little to nothing. MARP agrees with that cuz they have archived many games so their scores submitted for them aren't recognized the same way games not archived are recognized....plus there normally is a note why it was archived. In most cases they are archived cuz the emulation but other cases I think it's cuz there's little to no point having high scores for it cuz the game is too easy to complete and all reach the same score.

That's also why they require videotape for all scores now...or a TG referee or inp in the case of MAME score submissions. Note they keep the MAME scores separate from arcade scores. I originally wondered why cuz for most the emulation is fine so you can directly compare the scores. However, the differences in controllers with mame versus arcade machines etc. adds a variable there which TG feels warrants listing the MAME records separately. That's sort of what a couple have suggested would be a solution for the Outrun and Cameltry type issues that MARP has 2 listings for each of the rom sets...one playing it 1 way without any tricks like going offroad and maintaining speed or warping through walls, and the 2nd listing of scores playing it using those tricks.

Then you have 2 different fair competitions. At least that option is a lot better than from 35% of the vote approving to cheat at the game to get a high score is enough to change the high scores and force everyone else to play it that same way to have a chance to compete for the high scores.

There are a couple worlds in each of the courses in Cameltry where right where you start you can warp through a wall directly to the goal on the other side of that 1 wall essentially bypassing the entire level. You are taking a world that maybe takes 30+ seconds for even the best skilled player to complete playing the real game of Cameltry and completing it in 1 or 2 seconds using the trick. You have totally removed the skill level of completing that world having to do likely a couple hundred moves to just a few moves to get through that world.

Novice's inp didn't show any of that trick stuff beyond the 2nd world with that 1 bumper. He could have kept doing that on any of the other worlds in the course. I'd bet if his inp showed him just warping through walls all over the place and completing some of those worlds in 1 second you wouldn't even had made odd justifications for playing the game this way and saying it's skillful.

Maybe I should go ahead and make my own inp showing the abuse of this trick so it's a lot more clear how you don't need to play hardly any of the game of Cameltry the way it should be played.

I don't think some realize that and think that 1 spot with that 1 bumper is it. That's not the actual trick. The trick is warping through any wall you want. From that trick you can get in that small space between the normally unaccessible side of a bumper and a wall that results in very easy bumper leeching with no skill needed at all to keep bumping it cuz the space for the ball there is so small....then when ready to move on you just warp out of that area.

BTW, 1 thing puzzles me about Novice's inp. Novice stated he lowered the sensitivity of the controller when the ball was bouncing around in that bumper so he would be able to control the ball the rest of the game to finish. If he had really changed the sensitivity then, then how did he warp back out of that bumper area to get back on the designated part of the course? You can't warp with normal sensitivity settings. hmmm...

The walls are put there in the game to be barriers...not to just warp through them.

You can't compete with that any other way than resorting to cheating at the game and warping through those walls yourself to have a chance to beat a score accomplished using the trick.

I'm sorry but I would much rather play the game of Cameltry than something where you are just going through all the various walls almost at will to bypass playing the actual game.

MARP should just be like Gamest thing with an anything goes for all games then if they end up allowing an extreme example like Cameltry that should have a special rule to not allow this trick without even needing a vote on it IMHO to be allowed cuz it's so obvious...especially if it's only like 35% that say yes let's allow the trick. That's enough for MARP...oh well.

I await the poll and won't comment any further. I have a couple times said about all I can say about the game. I will let you know if I make my own inp. Maybe I would officially submit it also...but then later remove it and add it to the tricks page where I think inps using this trick really belong..and replace with my original current inp that's here...unless the trick ends up being allowed. Then I won't bother having any Cameltry scores even if they would be among the high scores. It's an empty accomplishment IMHO getting a high score by cheating at a game. I just know I won't look at MARP the same way anymore if this trick is allowed.

I hope enough share my opinion....cuz it's gonna take 66% to keep MARP the way it currently is.

[Novice]

DEFCON=7

Using the trick I could easily top your 2.2 million. I could easily see getting at least 6 million.

Then prove by the replay.everything will be solved.
you may have misunderstanding.


LESSON 1.

your great 678,780 is not 6 million.
6 million is 7 digits number. not 6. are you ok??



--my opinion--
discussion should be depend on THE FACT. not phantom.
only fact makes discussion. period.

[LN2]

Then prove by the replay.everything will be solved.
you may have misunderstanding.

I'm confused. what would that solve? If I submit an inp of like 4+ million that doesn't solve anything.

I don't have to do that to prove anything. My regular play of the game showing my skill is enough. Your skill for playing the game isn't as high at this point yet you were able to do the trick. To assume I or QRS or others highly skilled at the game can't cheat and use the trick is flawed.

[Novice]

I'm confused. what would that solve? If I submit an inp of like 4+ million that doesn't solve anything.

I don't have to do that to prove anything. My regular play of the game showing my skill is enough. Your skill for playing the game isn't as high at this point yet you were able to do the trick. To assume I or QRS or others highly skilled at the game can't cheat and use the trick is flawed.

Lesson 2.

You had not better logic of "IF" about impossible action.
I can not fly.
so all "if I can fly......" is nonsence.


Lesson 3.

"Do not " is not always "Can not".
"Can not" is always "Do not".
In this case, you had better use "can not prove..."


we want your replay rather than words.
I already hear it. undersood it. and understood beforeupload 2.2M replay.




P.S.
Generally,call oneself as a highly skill man IS "just ignorance."
"King of soldam" was toooo funny indeed.

I think QRS is too wise to call himself as highly skilled man.
I admit QRS is one of the very good player of all MARPer.

[LN2]

Lesson 2.

Excuse me but who are you to be giving English lessons?!?!?

we want your replay rather than words.

I showed a link to a 1.6 million quick game I played a bit earlier this evening. It took me 5 tries to do that. I play on a mac though so my inp won't playback for you correctly. It results in a "tilt" of the game on playback on anything else but macmame.

It's why I haven't supplied the inp but just the screenshot.

[Novice]

Lesson 2.

Excuse me but who are you to be giving English lessons?!?!?

Not an English lesson.
but a lesson of "How not to be called as a liar."

It takes 6'50". 2 minutes+ slower than your usual play.
leech only 800K????
it takes only 21.5 seconds.

[LN2]

It takes 6'50". 2 minutes+ slower than your usual play.

How do you figure that? If you look at my cameltry-spc scores for the 3 rom sets you will see times in the description of

6'24", 6'27"7 and 6'40"6.

So Mr. Math, how do you figure 6'55 is 2 whole minutes slower than those above times? the difference is about 20-30 seconds...exactly the time I spent getting into and spending time at that bumper spot.

I also was using the blue ball for that trick run cuz I tried a few times with the steel ball but it doesn't seem to want to warp...or if it does it's much harder to get to warp vs the blue ball. It might require an even higher sensitivity for the steel ball but I am already maxed out just to have the blue ball warp. Skilled players know the blue ball isn't able to move as quickly as the steel ball. The trade-off is the blue ball is much easier to control vs the steel ball. The steel ball bounces off hitting walls tons more than the blue ball does. Anyway I would add 10-20 seconds to my time just using the blue ball instead of the steel ball.

I also ask that you remove that stupid gloating description you added to your 2.2 million inp. MARP doesn't need that kind of BS in descriptions.

You put enough BS and stir up enough trouble in these forums. Leave the game records description listings alone for that crap.

[Francois Daniel]

Does this mean the poll to reject this poll is also null and void?

I made it only for attract an editor for the problems we had (flaming war, this poll, etc). So, as ****PL**** null and void this poll its logical that the mine was removed.

Sorry for all that, I would like only one thing : all this stuppid war stop. And thanks to ****PL**** for put back our minds in the right way (I mind by 'our' all guys who are involved in the stuppid war, including me of course)

For the pssibility of make poll I think it will be logical only Editors can started them, after they had be dicussion betwin marpers concerned on the subject of the poll. For the vote all marpers can vote, of course. Its my opinion and I respect all other opinions, even if I don't agree them.

Francois

[Francois Daniel]

Hisa finished the game, just just did it in a way "different" than other people did it. I would think it requires a vote to see if the trick is NOT acceptable if the game is finished.

although with camel try Hisa finishes the game, the focus of his attention goes ONLY to doing the trick and the rest is just finishing the game. But it's a pretty fine line either way you look at it, which is why votes are necesary.

I agree with you. Hisa use the current rules and his record is correct with the courrant rule. But I think also we must made a poll for dicide if his trick is legal. I'm against this trick but I think we must vote, and let him a chance to have his record be legal.

Caution ! I'm not against all tricks, I accept all kind of leeching, but I'm agains use of bugs who haven't in the spirit of the game. By exemple, I accept we can use the bug in gng who make finish stage 3 and 4 without beat the boss (because it's a random bug) but I'm not accept (as the marp rule) the infinite time bug (and I made it yet many times ).

Francois

[Francois Daniel]

[I have no clue how hard it would be to reach 9,999,990 though, but can see it as possible.

I'm curious, why do you think the Cameltry trick or the one in Outrun require great skill to do?.

For that, I agreed Hisa, we must do it by ourself for determine if its require great skills. But for determine if its legal no one need skills, only obectivity is needed and a good knowledge of the game.

Francois

[Novice]

You don't get it. Everything in gameplay is legal until a vote to ban the technique passes by 2/3.
This is what I and many other members don't understand. Look at rule 2c in the MARP rules. It suggests that all tricks that are equivalent to cheating(not playing the game under it's intended rules) are not allowed.

Therefore it would require 66% to approve that different method of playing the game using the trick.

Then how about this??
I think this system is better than current "66% require" system.
Vote to ban if you hate.
If "ban" vote collect 50%+ of members (current 188 men, so 95 votes)
trick will be banned.

leeching pattern was banned by another poll.
(automatic shot is no difference from trace automatic move.)
so, If someone uses pacman exactly same pattern,such play must be all reject automatically.
very good IDEA I think.

[LN2]

If "ban" vote collect 50%+ of members (current 188 men, so 95 votes) trick will be banned.

Gimme a break. You well know most members don't really participate in the forums so don't vote in polls. That alphamame blocking poll that got about 30 votes is the most votes for any poll I have seen since I got here.

Your 95 votes to ban something would never happen...which is likely what you want to start with....but cmon...we aren't that stupid. That would be like saying instead of the current 66% of the vote to ban something we need 99% cuz that makes the odds of banning something about the same as your scenario...which is ZERO chance.

If someone uses pacman exactly same pattern,such play must be all reject automatically. very good IDEA I think.

Personally I would actually hope no one was so cheap to just watch the top pacman inp and learn their early board patterns if they used any then their 9th key pattern then just play to get a high score themselves.

That isn't something you can enforce though. I developed my own 9th key pattern from scratch in a couple hours one evening. I have no idea if it matches an existing pattern. Given there are books with 100s of patterns around it wouldn't surprise me if it matched or was extremely close to an existing pattern...but I still created my pattern on my own so even if it matches I earned my scores.

I do know though that's why for some games the high scores for them aren't that high. They have submitted these to TG instead...not to share with the public where someone else could just use their patterns and et a high score themselves.

Even then it's pretty obvious when you watch games who has truly mastered the game versus who is just running someone else's patterns where when they screw up running a pattern odds are they die...cuz they lack the skills the other player has to wing-it and have a great chance of still advancing to the next board etc.

[The TJT]

"'Stupid competition. Why not try set 1?? "

Very nice comment after making a good score...why not break TG record then Ok, I understand, your only reason to stay here is to annoy us with idiotic comments? You play the game many days and all you can do is this score with pathetic comment...sad, I hope you got your kicks out of that though.

If "ban" vote collect 50%+ of members (current 188 men, so 95 votes)
trick will be banned.

very good IDEA I think.

Tired of this guys stupid comments, and mock of rules...yes, mock, nobody can not be that stupid really? Maybe it was irony ?
He's been arrogant all the time at Marp, and is getting worse...arrrgggh!!!