TTYF´s (Hisa Chans) Camletry recording.

[Francois Daniel]

I think Novice's tricks in his inps with Outrun and Cameltry is just the tip of a big iceberg. Given it appears both of these are going to be allowed then it's carte blanche for him and others to submit other inps using tricks to get high scores.
.

Yes, Hisa send many exemples of tricks on many games in another thread. But I dont remember the one.

I think we must made a poll for this trick. Maybe a general rule Poll for prevent any same trick in the future.

But change the analog sensitive during the game is enough for zeroed his inp. It's the same kind as make a Pause. I'm sorry for him because he spend colossal time effort to make this one.

Francois

[LN2]

It is the Guinness recording of 'marble' and the shortcut appears at the very end of the last maze. It is quite impressive.

Thx for the link and info.
I watched it...yeah haven't seen that last shortcut or can't remember it at least...hehe If you manage to get the ball off and get that timing to make that shortcut the first time, then it's worth it...miss it even once...then not worth it cuz the 1000 points lost for a life plus the few seconds for the ball to reset to try again you could easily be done going the long way.

If you make it that first attempt it would benefit you a little bit though...perhaps 2 seconds at the most....so 2,000 points tacked on for bonus...minus a few hundred you would get in traveling distance points going around the long way.

I guess that's significant though when you get to the extreme elite scores around 200k for that rom set of that game. Even then someone that didn't do it could get within 98-99% of the score of the one taking the shortcut. That a lot different than going through walls and scoring 10 times the normal points. That move in Marble Madness is also very risky cuz it's at the very end of the game and if you had the best run of the last 100 attempts going and blow that shortcut OMG....I'd bet you would go through a lot of computer mouses that way...and likely have a few holes in the wall. That's different versus even having some trick near the beginning on a risk basis....you still have 90+% of the game ahead of you....Marble Madness that last shortcut you have completed 99% of the game....big risk if you know you are close to possible record to go for that....miss and record maybe lost...might take you 100s of times to have a run that good to that point again. It changes the game in a very minor way...unlike Cameltry or Outrun where the game play is drastically changed from using the tricks.

Hisa only uploaded a 2.2 million score to demonstrate the trick. He could have done that without submitting it as a high score. As he said you can max it out at 9,999,990 using that technique throughout the course. I know if I took an evening I likely could get the max score even without using that +20 second lottery...if the trick works ok using frameskip 6. After all that great competition for that game with QRS this past week I likely won't touch the game again now until this is resolved. I'm sure QRS won't do anymore normal runs right now either.

When 1 method yields 10 million for score then playing it as intended only yields around 700k that makes the 700k effort and skill seem like a waste...and likely wouldn't be recognized or watched by others...all would just view the 10 million inp(s).

[Novice]

DEFCON= 5

zlk's comment is very nice.
I am very glad the appearence of good man.
MARP still has justice.

I think we must made a poll for this trick. Maybe a general rule Poll for prevent any same trick in the future.

Ok.
if short cut will be ban,most of marble madness scores turn to zero.
if automatical score improvement will be ban,most of robocop scores turn to zero.
if jumping out from maze will be ban,mappy,rolling thunder,super-hang on,
bubble bobble,snow brothers,night striker,legend of valkyrie,marchen
maze..... can you pick up all??

handreds of recording turn to zero.

But change the analog sensitive during the game is enough for zeroed his inp. It's the same kind as make a Pause. I'm sorry for him because he spend colossal time effort to make this one.
Francois

why pause?
if I can do it,then I did at the end of score improvement.
I changed it during stage 2 demonstrations.

QRS, do you still want all 3 versions for steel leeching??
If you stand a poll, pls not make it as [admit/ban] but
[admit/only at original version/ban]instead.
if 66% of players wants to ban, you ARE THE KING of here.

STEEL is not my favorite

[BBH]

all I will say is this. This Cameltry trick is FAR WORSE than the Outrun trick.

While I'm not crazy about the whole "off-road" aspect of Outrun in his .inp, it does take skill and timing to do correctly. And you still have to have some knowledge about all the levels. Yes it does lead to higher scores, but it really does seem like a legitimate trick after the evidence that Hisa supplied - that the trick is present in Outrun, Turbo Outrun, and Outrunners... and the home system ports of those games. If it really was a bug, it would be one amazing coincidence that all these games would have that in common.

warping through walls in Cameltry by spinning the dial faster than the programmers ever intended? that certainly does not fit the "SPIRIT of the game" that Hisa is always talking about. It's not a legitimate hidden thing that the programmers put in, it's a bug. A bug that leads to complete destruction of the scoring system on Stage 2 (or any other stage in which the ball can become stuck between a bumper and a wall).

Overall there's just way too much luck involved in getting a good score through this method. It just comes down to who can spend the most time leeching, and then get lucky enough to win the 20-second Lottery bonus when time runs out. It took Hisa literally hundreds of tries just to get a recording that does the leeching and finishes the game. Think about it, you need to be lucky to get the warping to go in your favor, you need to be lucky getting the ball into the leech spot, and then you need to be lucky enough to win the Lottery bonus if you do not leave soon enough to finish the level in time. Is anyone really interested in just playing those two levels over and over again hoping that luck is on their side long enough to successfully do everything necessary to leech like crazy and still finish the level?

The highest score should go the person with the most skill at the game. Not the luckiest.

[Novice]

DEFCON=5

The highest score should go the person with the most skill at the game. Not the luckiest.

sometimes so.
sometimes not.


At magic sword,pendant of floor 30 is necessary.
unless it,your score decrease fatal(about 1 million).
you must discard 7times out of 8.
even if you have god like skill, no-pendant players can not any hope to avobe 13 million.
#Because of I still set poor 12-13 millions,it is enough at marp.

At 1943, if you finish the game with 7 or more movi-chan kill,
(chance is (1/16)^7x(7C10)=120/33554432=1/250K
your score exceed gamest record. (it has only 4 chance out of 1 million.)

At sengoku ace,if you want to beat current world record,
you must destroy most of enemies and no-miss 2 loops clear
and kill 2 big railload(at 1-3 and 2-3). your chance is only once out of 4th power of 4. (1/256)

At syvalion, if you get Special bubble at stage 5,you can get 4 million points with ease.and world record require it. (1/4096). if you kill 16 enemies at the beginning, still 1/256.

At Merhen Maze,
if you finish the game without miss and get 24times 7650 bonus ball,
you will be the world record holder.

At dragon Saber,
if you finish the game without miss and get 18 life bonus with 300K points,
you will beat world record.


most of the high scores require Luck.
finish the game already require least amount of skill.

and one more thing.
both I and other camel try player uses DIFFERENT charactor.
our difference of speed is more than it of zangief and barlog.
it is no wonder faster ball play is smarter and my recordings seemed poorer.

#in fact... I also admit.

anysome my style is not changed yet.
ignore all opinion(complain) who can not prove the cheapness by one's skill.

[LN2]

if short cut will be ban,most of marble madness scores turn to zero.

I don't think so. I know Lord Gaz's inps...at least the couple of his I watched didn't use that shortcut. None of mine used that shortcut.

why pause?
if I can do it,then I did at the end of score improvement.
I changed it during stage 2 demonstrations.

He is saying going into the config to change analog sensitivity settings is sort of like pausing the game. He isn't saying you paused the game, but since pausing isn't allowed for MARP recordings then going into the config area during a recording to change settings during play shouldn't be allowed either. Pausing isn't allowed for recordings to try and stay with the spirit of arcade games. You wouldn't be able to pause your play in the arcade. You certainly couldn't change your controller sensitivity or button assignments during the play of any arcade game either. You could only change the settings in between games. Both actions would require opening the cabinet to hit a dip switch.

Even if this trick is allowed your current 2.2 million uploaded inp should be zeroed out anyway for changing the settings during the game. If MARP has no general policy for that like pausing then a poll for that should be done also. With the objective of MARP to follow the spirit of the arcades the 66% majority would have to vote to allow changing of settings during gameplay for it to be allowed IMHO.

If you stand a poll, pls not make it as [admit/ban] but
[admit/only at original version/ban]instead.
if 66% of players wants to ban, you ARE THE KING of here.

We should just vote whether to allow it for the 1 rom set or not IMHO. We still want high scores for the game playing it normally also. If you allow the trick for all 3 rom sets then after a while that is what all the top scores would be....except for maybe the training course....would need to see if any extreme shortcuts there for time bonuses.

However, given 66% is needed to pass how do you do that with 3 possible choices? Odds are neither one will get 66% so what is the outcome then? or do most votes win in the case of more than 2 choices? i think it really would require 2 separate votes. one whether to allow the technique or not then if allowed a second poll whether to allow for all 3 rom sets or just 1.

I suggested by default tricks shouldn't be allowed so the 66% vote requirement would have to be to allow this trick for this game. The trick itself is a special case that would need the special rule. It's odd MARP only requires 34% for tricks to be allowed. It's a flaw in the logic of requiring the 66% majority. It's the only reason the Outrun trick is still allowed even though only 40% thought it should be allowed. The 66% to say it's fine using the trick is what should have been required for the trick to be allowed. It barely got half of that level of vote.

STEEL is not my favorite

That doesn't surprise me cuz you can barely handle the blue ball in that inp. BTW you can finish that first world where you warped out to void then warped back through to the goal even faster if you just play it normally. You finished with 37.0 seconds left which isn't bad but running it normally I often am in the 39-40 seconds left range for that 1st world.
I guess with your extreme controller sensitivity at that point you can't really control it through the world that well though.

[The TJT]

Yes, 66% rule should be dropped completely. Outrun vote was a mock of democracy.
Also applying a 66% rule was a mock of democracy, and the outcome of that rule surely was not intended to be like this.
--------

Marble has many,many clever shortcuts -just check my tricks submission.
Most of them are too risky compared for the advantage gained though.
I have to agree that the shortcut which was linked before in this thread would be much too risky, but if succeeded -would be most unfair to other players. -Too big advantage compared to propability to succeed, this is what ruins the gameplay imo. Nobody wants to play a perfect game 100 times and in the end of the game try something which succeeds about 1%.

race3 shortcut(maze) does not have real significance, too risky compared to advantage. There will not even be real advantage, if the maze is completed very fast.

I can pull off the last curve 2-3 sec shortcut about 50%-66% of tries, and it's purely skill -so that does not ruin the game.

Tommi

[QRS]

Well it looks like a poll is needed here

It does not have to be me doing it, so feel free to do it this time Rick. Or anyone else of course.

I will be gone for a few days, but if a poll is not up until I get back, I guess I will do one.

Cheers, and keep the mature discussion going! Looking good so far!

[piot]

Just a simple question : Does MARP allow settings to be change during a play ?

If yes, let's think about that :
" I play any race game. This game can not be played on my computer over 90% except if frameskip is set to 8 (for example). There is a special spot at level 2 I can not pass throw with regular speed. What can stop me in setting FS to 0 only for this level in order to sucess then set FS to 8 at the end of the level. I'm sure if I go further the 90% barrier will be overpassed because all other levels will be played near to 100% speed."

I don't want to talk about others points right now cuz I haven't checked the inp yet.

[Novice]

Yes, 66% rule should be dropped completely. Outrun vote was a mock of democracy.
Also applying a 66% rule was a mock of democracy, and the outcome of that rule surely was not intended to be like this.

Changing current rule should be need much more than half.it is logical.

democracy is very strict and strong.

if this site does not have spirit of democracy,
then your opinion will automatically reject.
#prove your word by your skill. loser must shut up.
I dislike such arrogance spirit. I like here.

and If you hete here, then leave.
I do not care.I know you can not anything worth to see at all.

Marble has many,many clever shortcuts -just check my tricks submission.
Most of them are too risky compared for the advantage gained though.
I have to agree that the shortcut which was linked before in this thread would be much too risky, but if succeeded -would be most unfair to other players. -Too big advantage compared to propability to succeed, this is what ruins the gameplay imo. Nobody wants to play a perfect game 100 times and in the end of the game try something which succeeds about 1%.

race3 shortcut(maze) does not have real significance, too risky compared to advantage. There will not even be real advantage, if the maze is completed very fast.

I can pull off the last curve 2-3 sec shortcut about 50%-66% of tries, and it's purely skill -so that does not ruin the game.
Tommi

Can not find essential difference.between camel try and marble madness.

"Nobody wants to play a perfect game 100 times and in the end of the game try something which succeed about 1%."
I agree it is painful work.
and It is the reason, why 1 success is splendid.

penetrate into sweet spot IS THE "biggerst fun" of this game.
nothing is compareble.
finish game? crash time stop? slot +10+10+10??crash +5 seconds???
no way. those fun are much far inferior than sweet spot.


I uploads only 5 recording in this year.
why do I have to bashed 3 recordings so much at here??

I found many amount of slowdown, steal replay from Japanese site,
clearly share common name,stupid mimic play....etcetc to point out.

I doubt some people enjoy to stalk/bash me.
some people can not keep one's word=liar.
I want such players.
1 To see good replay
2 If he can not,to see unseen tricks
3 If not,to discuss with enough knowledge
4 If can not,keep silent.
5 If can not ,then ignore me and my play.

these stalkers can not do 5th (my last) wishing.

[piot]

Changing current rule should be need much more than half.it is logical.

I'm agree with U but when more than 2 choices are available 66% seems harder to be reached. In this case (and only in this case) I think 50% should be enougth. Or a several rounds poll could be set, first round to find out 2 choices then a 66% roll between thoses choises.

[Skyline]

I doubt some people enjoy to stalk/bash me.
some people can not keep one's word=liar.
I want such players.
1 To see good replay
2 If he can not,to see unseen tricks
3 If not,to discuss with enough knowledge
4 If can not,keep silent.
5 If can not ,then ignore me and my play.

these stalkers can not do 5th (my last) wishing.

Okay..maybe I'm high or something..but who's bashing you? So far no one here has said "NOVICE U R TEH SUX CHEATER FAGET LOL!!!!!!!!11111111", so don't get your drawers in a bunch over it. This is, as many have said before, a harmless discussion concerning a tactic used in a game, and should be treated as such.

What's the only feasable problem I see with your inp is the fact that you changed the settings in mid-game, and even admitted to doing so. That's construed as being the same as pausing during play, which has been deemed a no-no here at MARP. The game itself shows some great display of skill and knowledge of the small gaps in the game design that allow for warping, etc. I actually broke the friggin mouse trying to play this game with the sensitivity set to Max. [Probably pressed down on it too hard or somethin.. ] So skill-wise I'm VERY impressed. Hopefully the fact that I won't be able to beat 2 million even if my eyeballs depended on it won't disqualify my opinion..

A lot of people tweak spinner/dial-based games and vary the sensitivity of the control. So using max sensitivity wouldn't even be an issue (...would it...? ).

And I'm all for disabling settings change during inps in AlphaMAME, etc.

[Chad]

Just a simple question : Does MARP allow settings to be change during a play ?

I think the question remains, can you change the speed settings in a real arcade environment during play (and not being the manager able to open up the cabinet) of camel try? If not, we dont need a poll and hisa's major effort is for not. If so, then yes it's allowed because it's doable in the arcade, and a poll could be created to go for speed completion or bumper sticking trick.

[The TJT]

Yes, 66% rule should be dropped completely. Outrun vote was a mock of democracy.
Also applying a 66% rule was a mock of democracy, and the outcome of that rule surely was not intended to be like this.

Changing current rule should be need much more than half.it is logical.

democracy is very strict and strong.

if this site does not have spirit of democracy,
then your opinion will automatically reject.
#prove your word by your skill. loser must shut up.
I dislike such arrogance spirit. I like here.

and If you hete here, then leave.
I do not care.I know you can not anything worth to see at all.

Yes, I do think 67% rule is not fair. Sorry for having this opinion different than yours. This surely justifies you to tell me that I cannot do anything worth to see at all -whattafuck, you mean my inps at marp? Check them again.

Rick is right, if anyone disagrees with you -you start blaming him. Get some therapy.

[LN2]

I think the question remains, can you change the speed settings in a real arcade environment during play (and not being the manager able to open up the cabinet) of camel try?

Chad, I have never seen an arcade game that has sensitivity for the controller in any area except the service mode or other accessed via dip switches inside the cabinet or physically altering the controller or turning a variable resistor associated with the controller to change the voltage range thus changing the sensitivity. I'm think even then no way you could increase the sensitivity 20 fold unless that voltage is some logarithmic scale within the game code interpretation of that voltage value(s). Remember those are analog controls in the games meaning the voltage itself from the controller or how the game interprets that voltage has to be altered to change the actual sensitivity.

No real arcade game has the options to configure it the way MAME does during play.

That's why I suggested for alphamame that config access feature of amme be disabled like pause is disabled for "official" inp recordings.
You can run without that to setup your cfg properly before playing your "official" run.

There are likely numerous other games where this could be beneficial also...where for certain levels it would benefit the player using a higher or lower sensitivity than they used for other levels. Something no arcade game can do.

I'm sorry but I can't see how a few above have watched his inp and commend him on it being very skillful. I laughed through parts of it from the lack of skill..especially world 10, the final stage. He got stuck on those arrows areas so much and so long I was LOL. It appeared the player was almost clueless how to play those. It looked in parts like a newbie playing the game on that last world. Other areas were played reasonably well though so I'll give him a little bit of credit there...but just a little....marginally close to average level of play. Compare that to other inps showing skillful play and the difference is obvious especially in the final stage.