Elevator Action leeching

Discussion about MARP's regulation play

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Almighty Dread
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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by Almighty Dread » Sat Mar 07, 2015 7:50 am

***PL*** wrote:The "Compelling Reasons" list is valid, but incomplete.
I never said the list was complete, and I'm sure it isn't.
***PL*** wrote:There is no mention about following site and specific game rules, so perhaps consider adding this:
4. Gameplay produces high score, but contains cheating or banned techniques.
Sounds good to me, except I'd leave out the "high score" bit. Any gameplay which includes cheating ought to be dismissed, whether or not it produces a high score.
***PL*** wrote:Back when I was a Regulation Coordinator, I believe I originally wrote Rule 2h. It was a MARP general rule put in effect mainly to address increasing violations of "the spirit of the game". My dilemma was whether to include a fixed time limit on "point leeching" (lack of level progress or character movement) and decided against it. Thought being, several minutes could be acceptable, but certainly not an hour.
If that's the case, then the staff at MARP have some work to do. I have seen, for example, that all the top scores for Robocop are produced by gameplay which exploits a major bug in the game's programming, enabling the players to accumulate literally millions of points while there is no risk to or movement of their characters whatsoever. In spite of this glaring fact, these replays have been accepted on this site without comment. Meanwhile, my method, which involves risk observable to anyone with eyes and brain, seems to have attracted an inordinate amount of attention.

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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by Barra » Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:44 am

Do you really think you are the current best EA player? Serious question.
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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by INNUENDO » Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:52 am

Almighty Dread wrote:
***PL*** wrote:The "Compelling Reasons" list is valid, but incomplete.
I never said the list was complete, and I'm sure it isn't.
***PL*** wrote:There is no mention about following site and specific game rules, so perhaps consider adding this:
4. Gameplay produces high score, but contains cheating or banned techniques.
Sounds good to me, except I'd leave out the "high score" bit. Any gameplay which includes cheating ought to be dismissed, whether or not it produces a high score.
***PL*** wrote:Back when I was a Regulation Coordinator, I believe I originally wrote Rule 2h. It was a MARP general rule put in effect mainly to address increasing violations of "the spirit of the game". My dilemma was whether to include a fixed time limit on "point leeching" (lack of level progress or character movement) and decided against it. Thought being, several minutes could be acceptable, but certainly not an hour.
If that's the case, then the staff at MARP have some work to do. I have seen, for example, that all the top scores for Robocop are produced by gameplay which exploits a major bug in the game's programming, enabling the players to accumulate literally millions of points while there is no risk to or movement of their characters whatsoever. In spite of this glaring fact, these replays have been accepted on this site without comment. Meanwhile, my method, which involves risk observable to anyone with eyes and brain, seems to have attracted an inordinate amount of attention.
In Robocop, there´s a time limit. If you watched the replays, all the players go to end of level before the time stops. In EA, you can be till the end of time killing enemies without have troubles with the time.
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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by mahlemiut » Sat Mar 07, 2015 7:36 pm

For MARP in general, leeching becomes a problem when it can be done more or less indefinitely. I often actively avoid watching INPs when I know there is possibly extensive leeching, it's just dead boring to sit through (even when switching the throttle off).

I enjoy Elevator Action, please don't make me not want to look at it again...
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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by Haze » Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:13 pm

I don't know why this is even up for debate...

If you can delay the natural difficulty progression of a game while obtaining points near enough indefinitely by doing so (no real incentive to move further) to the point where it gives you a significant scoring advantage over somebody who plays properly (no real incentive to record proper replays) then it's leeching.

sure some inps are boring, as mentioned the mspacman ones, but that's more a case of setting the scene to get the best score, rather than something that can be milked.

it amazes me what terrible attitudes a lot of players seem to have on here when their techniques are questions, it's another like another level of aggression altogether.. this is MARP, you play by MARP rules.

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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by OMG Kreygasm » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:36 am

I really only play EA on the arcade hardware but enemies come out of the red doors after the timer goes off, this is why even if you have a situation where you have a red door by itself on the top of the first escalator on the right hand side (which happens occasionally), you can't just sit there and hop on enemies as they ride the escalator up to you because the red door in front of you opens when the timer expires.

Does this not happen in MAME? Curious because I saw the mention of the necessity for a red door to alleviate some potential issues. On my machine enemies exit the red door when the alarm goes off.

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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by Chad » Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:16 pm

I think I have seen spies come out of the red doors using mame. Perhaps when the time limit music comes on, there is a just chance they will come out of red doors but only if you are on the same floor (or approaching the same floor) as the red door. I doubt there is any emulation difference between mame and the arcade when it comes to game logic. Apparently, at least in mame although, they must not come out of a red door when it is not on the floor otto is on; since this recording has no spy come out of the red door on floor 6 for the entire duration otto is on floor 7.
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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by Shahbaz » Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:03 am

Almighty Dread wrote:Thanks for activating my account, George. I have no objection to your banning elevator jamming, as it makes the game easier. As you may now observe, I need no jammed elevators to help me kill a thousand men
Oh, sorry Mr Dread, I did not see your "EA leeching" thread and may you did not see my "Vigilante leeching" thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15728#p61067

What do you think, your leeching method is legal? then why did you not make max possible score.??


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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by Zhorik » Sun May 10, 2015 7:13 pm

Bumping this thread since we never reached a final decision on the latest version of Level 7 play that Almighty Dread had in his later replay http://replay.marpirc.net/inp/5/7/1/scl ... olf106.zip

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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by INNUENDO » Wed May 13, 2015 11:23 am

I don´t understand... Why he keeps the 1st place in this game?
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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by Phil Lamat » Wed May 13, 2015 1:26 pm

Phil Lamat wrote: So I think we can at least banned the "elevator blocked" technic, but for the rest ?
What special rule do we need ?
A limitation for each floor in term of frames ?

One more think :
inputs from Skito and Innuendo do complete 7th building, Almighty's only completes 6th building ;
special scoring based on number of buildings completed ?
Nobody really answered that, except CrazyKongFan's proposal :
"I wonder if a good rule would be allowing to point press until the music changes, then make your exit"

I'm ok to DQ Almighty's inp, but we need first to clarify what is allowed in term of leeching, and what is not.
For example, Innuendo, you leech some points at the end of 2nd building instead of exiting immediatly.
But yes, as the music gets faster you're going out.

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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by TRB_MetroidTeam » Wed May 13, 2015 10:23 pm

All I can say it's a hard decision. Not the same situation, but Time Pilot and Aliens came to my mind...
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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by Chad » Thu May 14, 2015 10:29 pm

I'm not sure it's that difficult to decide. The rule is "You cannot continuously gain points without some degree of risk and you must keep moving to complete a level." If you are not in an elevator and not near a door and leeching, there is no significant risk. Everyone else milks points while riding an elevator or near doors, where milking can't be done forever while the music plays. This guy finds spots on the floor away from the elevator and doors (no danger) and locks spys so the risk is reduced enough where you *can* milk forever.
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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by INNUENDO » Fri May 15, 2015 10:21 am

My opinion and Skito is the same. I do leech in almost games that I play in MARP. But I have risks when I do my gameplays and I do not stay forever stoped in a safe spot doing infinite points.

Again, why his hiscore is in 1st place yet?
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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by Phil Lamat » Fri May 15, 2015 9:09 pm

INNUENDO wrote:Again, why his hiscore is in 1st place yet?
Because I want to state first exactly what has to be banned there.
I don't see really the difference between his 70k leeched (he's close to an elevator) and for example the 5k leeched by Skito on floor 1 to score from 11k to 16k.
At first sight, I don't see there that it's more risky. The only difference is that Chad leechs less points, but he still goes out after music changes.

My proposal :
ban any points made when music has changed
(but I will need help to edit scores if so)

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