How to Handle Cheaters at MARP?

[The TJT]

Here you go.

I hit it with my sword, look!

[Weehawk]

yeah #2 does seem to say cheat until you don't get caught, but that's what's always happened.

Unfortunately.

A lot of cheaters WONT get caught because we still allow unsecure mame recordings

Alphamame blocking was good....I hope we have something like it again someday.

There's something to forgiveness too

Agreed. That's partly why I wouldn't worry too much about someone having been banned coming back under another name. If they learned their lesson and are ready to start over again playing legit, okay.

if you catch someone and still let them upload it would mean they "STOPED" cheating at least for one way

Not necessarily.

yes, they could be finding other ways to cheat, but they know that cheating can be "found out" and perhaps they might have less of a chance of doing so.

But why should they care? I just can't see how this gives a dishonest person any incentive not to cheat.

Thanks for responding. I think except for Frankie (and I'm not sure he reads the forum regularly) all the editors have let us know how they feel about this, and I respect that.

[Weehawk]

I voted for #2 simply because #1 is too harsh. If there was a middle ground selection for this poll like a few warnings with repeated offenses leading to a 2-3 month ban then repeated offenses after that potentially permanent banishment....then I would have voted for that.

There was a method to my madness. Of course I'm aware that there are other possibilities, and it may well be that something in between the two choices may be the optimal strategy.

#1 easily reads like if you are determined to be cheating at a game, that's it...bye bye. That's too harsh so I didn't vote for it.

Makes me wonder if you really answered the question that I asked then. What I was looking for is which of the two choices most closely represents your view on the appropriate way to deal with the problem.

For me the choice between the two is a clear one, but I understand for some people it might not be as easy.

[Weehawk]

let the sunset on this one.

Don't let the sun go down on me.
Although I search myself, it's always someone else I see

star

Everybody is a star
I can feel it when you shine on me
I love you for who you are
Not the one you feel the need to be

[LN2]

Makes me wonder if you really answered the question that I asked then. What I was looking for is which of the two choices most closely represents your view on the appropriate way to deal with the problem.

Well, given you wrote the question I think only you know what you actually asked.

I read it like this...let's say I find an inp uploaded by you that isn't following the special rules set for the game. Ok, that's cheating..for your #1 you are BANNED...no questions or investigation or warning or talking to you or anything....your #1 choice or question doesn't suggest any of that would be done. Banned, bye-bye.

That's way too harsh. It seems that perhaps isn't what you meant, but that's how many of us that voted no are reading it.

Given that extremely harsh method versus what seems to be the curent action of just zeroing out the inp I think the current is better.

Also, you sort of violated your own thing. Why didn't you just start this as a normal thread and let the discussion take place some? Then you would know how to phrase the poll question and what other choices you might want to add.

Then you can always edit your first post in the thread to add a poll.
It's clear from the response in this thread I am not the only one to read your poll question and choices this way.

[LN2]

Alphamame blocking was good....I hope we have something like it again someday.

Posted this separately cuz I forgot..no "edit" here again.

John, MARP already has this...It's called wolfmame. Wolfmame has everything alphamame had except for the inp data file encryption.

Most "cheating" isn't someone hacking up an inp file to set a high score.
It's someone playing the game but by a different set of rules versus what MARP requires as the minimal game settings and not using banned techniques and following special rules for the game if any are stated. That's the only real difference alphamame had(before that hack wrote a conversion util)...encrypted data to prevent players from hacking the inp file.

Also most cheating in the past here is game speed issues actually...where a player is totally playing the game under the right rules and settings except where the game is maybe playing at 25-33%...which for many games...shooters mainly, allows you to get higher scores.

There are some inps here now that I still suspect game speed...especially many of these games like matching mahjong tiles. for some of the newer ones the timer counts down so quickly you really have zero time to work on the puzzle. For me to get past the first round for example, requires me to match and remove tiles as fast as I can...and even then I finish with the timer down in the red. Round 2 is virtually impossible for me even matching them as fast as possible...yet there are recordings here with the players getting through several rounds. Wolfmame does record speeds in the inp. Sports match is an example of this.

The problem for cheating at a level where you are fudging an inp file is where MAME is an open source project, any kind of utility could be written to fake this or that in an inp....including cutting/splicing segments together etc. from separate inps.

Anyone that seriously wants to cheat that badly to take steps that tedious and extreme just to cheat will find a way to do it regardless what you do to MAME to try and make it secure.

What happened to alphamame is a perfect example of this.

In most cases if MARP just had a requirement that for anyone where cheating has been proven, they will have all of the regular mame recordings deleted. Only their alphamame and wolfmame recordings will remain with a requirement for that player to always use alphamame or wolfmame for future submissions.

That gets the job done IMHO. If it's then determined that the player found a way to cheat using alphamame or wolfmame also, then you are into a more serious cheating offense that could deserve something as severe as banishment from MARP.

[mahlemiut]

Anyone that seriously wants to cheat that badly to take steps that tedious and extreme just to cheat will find a way to do it regardless what you do to MAME to try and make it secure.

What happened to alphamame is a perfect example of this.

Except that Neill had absolutely no intentions on cheating. More something along the lines of "if it can be broken, then there's no point to security" or something to that effect.

[Weehawk]

Well, given you wrote the question I think only you know what you actually asked

Uh...no...anyone that reads the question carefully knows what I asked. Perhaps you meant that only I know what I intended to ask, but I still think I asked exactly what I intended to. Bear in mind the poll question at the very top is simplified for the sake of brevity, as are the choices. I fleshed them out a bit in the original post to be clear what I meant by them.

I read it like this...let's say I find an inp uploaded by you that isn't following the special rules set for the game. Ok, that's cheating

What is the most appropriate response for the MARP community when one of its members is determined to have deliberately cheated?

Okay, perhaps I should have boldened "deliberately cheated", but I chose those words carefully. The scenario you present, in my mind, doesn't fit at all.

Also, you sort of violated your own thing.

What thing? Letting editors start polls?

I have expressed the opinion in the Regulation Forum that only editors at MARP should have the authority to start polls with respect to rule changes, etc... Such polls should be held in that forum and I still believe that their creation should be left to the editors. The MARP membership at large however, should still be able to create polls for informational or entertainment purposes, and such polls would be appropriate here in the General Forum. This is such a poll.

Then you would know how to phrase the poll question and what other choices you might want to add.

I knew how I wanted to phrase the poll question. And that I didn't want a whole spectrum of choices. I wanted to know how the members felt towards the two choices given.

Then you can always edit your first post in the thread to add a poll.

No, you can't.

Alphamame blocking was good....I hope we have something like it again someday.

John, MARP already has this...It's called wolfmame

I'm familiar with wolfmame, but there is no wolfmame blocking policy.

[LN2]

Okay, perhaps I should have boldened "deliberately cheated", but I chose those words carefully. The scenario you present, in my mind, doesn't fit at all.

What question are you viewing? I don't see those words on your question. If the word deliberate was in your question I very likely would have voted yes...cuz then you are talking about someone intentionally and deliberately cheating, fully aware it's against the rules and considered cheating, yet still does it.

That's quite different than just simply someone "caught" cheating.

What thing? Letting editors start polls?

Well, since you made it clear this poll was only to get an opinion no....but the point that you should have let it be discussed some first before starting the poll.

I'm sure after some of the above discussion the word "deliberate" would be included in your question as well as perhaps a middle-ground choice or even a bit better explanation of the #1 choice where a warning or 2 warnings are given...then on further deliberate cheating, would be banned and have all scores removed.

I knew how I wanted to phrase the poll question. And that I didn't want a whole spectrum of choices. I wanted to know how the members felt towards the two choices given.

It doesn't ned a spectrum of choices....but just a 3rd choice that is some middle ground between the current and the extreme the first choice is.

Then you can always edit your first post in the thread to add a poll.

No, you can't.

Now in this forum it seems you can't do that anymore. I'm not sure why. We used to be able to edit in this forum also...cuz I used to do it. Previously, I had done it for a couple polls I. I had started a normal thread..then after 2-3 days of discussion I saw there was enough interest and people on both sides of the issue so I then edited that first post and addd a poll.

It would be nice if edit mode is allowed in this forum again.

I'm familiar with wolfmame, but there is no wolfmame blocking policy.

My point was you could add that blocking for proven cheaters. You overlooked that. It's moot to you anyway cuz you would have already banned them and removed all their scores. Plus, there are other ways to deliberately cheat in several games at MARP that would be possible in wolfmame also.

If a player is known to understand special rules for a game yet refuses to follow them then initially their score would be zeroed out..but them repeating it over and over I think should lead to them potentially having their membership suspended for some period of time then beyond that perhaps banishment.

Even if wolfmame/alphamame blocking was active, it would stop someone from using the RLH cheat or other cheats for games in the cheat.dat file or elsewhere, but it wouldn't stop them from using devices with auto-fire for games like T-n-F.

[Weehawk]

What question are you viewing? I don't see those words on your question

Quote my original post and I'll highlight it for you.

And remember:

Bear in mind the poll question at the very top is simplified for the sake of brevity, as are the choices. I fleshed them out a bit in the original post to be clear what I meant by them.

Yes, that means people have to read the whole original post, not just the question at top. I give the majority of MARP members credit for having that much sense.

Now in this forum it seems you can't do that (edit) anymore. I'm not sure why

I am.

[LN2]

Quote my original post and I'll highlight it for you.

Here is the poll question...

What do you think is the most appropriate way to deal with players at MARP caught cheating?

Ok, show me the phrase "deliberately cheating" in this question?

Sure, you use that phrase and other stuff in your first post to elaborate some, yet the poll question and choices show no signs of that.

I'm not about to take the stated question and combine it with all that other stuff you stated to then figure out what other implied information is actually in your question and choices. We often have polls on something like gameplay techniques where in the poll it refers to the below post for more information and a URL to download an example replay file to view prior to voting.

Yes, that means people have to read the whole original post, not just the question at top. I give the majority of MARP members credit for having that much sense.

I read your post prior to voting, but when I read your question and choices I still thought #1 was too harsh as stated.

For example, in your post there is no mention of a warning(s) system. What "cheating" is really isn't even defined. If you use a strict definition then almost all of us have cheated at some point....where we maybe submit an inp not using the right game dip switch settings that might be stated in special rules....or other types of game setup stuff. Ok, so if it's decided someone deliberately cheated even if they have never done it before they are banned and all scores removed?!? That's too harsh. The player has the right to defend themselves, replay the game properly to satisfy the editors or just tell the editors to remove the score or the player remove the score themselves.

Ok, someone submits a wolfmame inp that on playback shows it only averages 88% speed. Oops, that's delberately cheating....slower than 90% rule. Sorry, we must ban you. cmon. Perhaps a game has a special rule to use pro mode versus amateur....but a person uploads an inp using the default setting of amateur. Oh, that's cheating..BANNED. cmon!

I'm sure that's not exactly what you mean. If you are doing it for general opinion then 1-2 additional middle-road choices would have been nice to see....and actually allowed for a better poll of the opinion.

Pools for rules work best if only 2 choices cuz the 2/3rds rule needed to add the special rule, but to just get a general opinion, more choices would have been better.

I am for #2 for initial cheating cases but think more strict action must be taken at some point for repeat offenders that just don't get it even after a few of their scores have been zeroed out. This wasn't among the choices and nothing like that was mentioned in your post

[Weehawk]

I'm not about to take the stated question and combine it with all that other stuff you stated to then figure out what other implied information is actually in your question and choices.

Like I said, I give most MARP members credit for enough sense to do this.

I read your post prior to voting

Well, I believe you looked at it. But if you really read it you wouldn't have been surprised later to find that we were talking about "deliberate cheating". I chose my words carefully. It's not my fault if some people don't read carefully.

[Buttermaker]

I'm not about to take the stated question and combine it with all that other stuff you stated to then figure out what other implied information is actually in your question and choices.

You lack common sense.

It's not my fault if some people don't read carefully.

The problem here isn't reading. It's understanding.

[Novice]

restore tgmame rule and boot macmame cheater!

it is not so bad opinion.
but I vote to #2. I love peace.

[The TJT]

Yes, you are widely known here as a peace-loving nice chap.
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