How to Handle Cheaters at MARP?

General discussion on MAME, MARP, or whatever else that doesn't belong in any of the other forums

Moderators: mahlemiut, seymour, QRS

What do you think is the most appropriate way to deal with players at MARP caught cheating?

Ban the player and delete all the player's recordings.
22
61%
Delete only the illegal recordings and allow the player to continue to participate at MARP.
14
39%
 
Total votes: 36

User avatar
Weehawk
MARPaholic
MARPaholic
Posts: 2546
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 7:43 am
Location: Devil's Canyon
Contact:

How to Handle Cheaters at MARP?

Post by Weehawk » Fri Oct 10, 2003 9:05 am

I have expressed the opinion in the Regulation Forum that only editors at MARP should have the authority to start polls with respect to rule changes, etc... Such polls should be held in that forum and I still believe that their creation should be left to the editors. The MARP membership at large however, should still be able to create polls for informational or entertainment purposes, and such polls would be appropriate here in the General Forum. This is such a poll.

I am interested in how the MARP community in general and the MARP editors as individuals feel about this issue.

My question is: What is the most appropriate response for the MARP community when one of its members is determined to have deliberately cheated? For purposes of this poll let's assume that we're past the question of whether the player cheated, and take it as given that it has been determined the he or she did.

For the sake of simplicity, I'd like to consider just two basic options:

1) The player should be banned from future participation in MARP, and all the player's scores already submitted should be deleted, not just the ones that were decided to be illegitimate, all of them.

2) Only the player's recordings that were determined to be achieved illegally should be deleted. All other recordings by the player should be allowed to stand, and the player should be allowed to continue to participate at MARP.

Which one of these best sums up how you feel this problem should be dealt with, once it is discovered?

Tell us why you believe that course of action is most appropriate.
John Cunningham (JTC)
Image

User avatar
Blost
MARP Serf
MARP Serf
Posts: 123
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2002 4:37 pm
Location: France

Re: How to Handle Cheaters at MARP?

Post by Blost » Fri Oct 10, 2003 9:53 am

Weehawk wrote:
1) The player should be banned from future participation in MARP, and all the player's scores already submitted should be deleted, not just the ones that were decided to be illegitimate, all of them.
A bit harsh in my opinion.
Anyway what prevents the banned/deleted player to create another login & start over?

User avatar
Weehawk
MARPaholic
MARPaholic
Posts: 2546
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 7:43 am
Location: Devil's Canyon
Contact:

Re: How to Handle Cheaters at MARP?

Post by Weehawk » Fri Oct 10, 2003 10:07 am

Blost wrote:
Weehawk wrote:
1) The player should be banned from future participation in MARP, and all the player's scores already submitted should be deleted, not just the ones that were decided to be illegitimate, all of them.
A bit harsh in my opinion.
Anyway what prevents the banned/deleted player to create another login & start over?
Perhaps nothing.

But that player might understand at that point that further cheating would not be tolerated, and other would-be cheaters might get the same message.

What do you think?
John Cunningham (JTC)
Image

Buttermaker
MARP Seer
MARP Seer
Posts: 788
Joined: Sun May 19, 2002 9:06 am

Re: How to Handle Cheaters at MARP?

Post by Buttermaker » Fri Oct 10, 2003 10:35 am

Blost wrote:A bit harsh in my opinion.
Once a cheater, always a cheater.
Anyway what prevents the banned/deleted player to create another login & start over?
Nothing, but that doesn't mean we should allow cheaters to stay at MARP. Just because they could make a new account.

It's the only way to clean up MARP in my opinion.

User avatar
diabolik
MARP Knight
MARP Knight
Posts: 287
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2002 6:48 pm
Location: Finland

Post by diabolik » Fri Oct 10, 2003 10:55 am

I voted for first option. Maybe its harsh, but we need to be harsh to get rid of cheating.

IMO MARPs policy towards cheating should be much more strict. Or maybe some kind of "Three strikes and you're out"-law, if its too harsh to ban them for the first offence.

No mercy for cheaters.

User avatar
AL
MARP Seer
MARP Seer
Posts: 661
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2002 11:15 pm
Location: A pub or an off-licence in Dublin , Ireland .
Contact:

re....

Post by AL » Fri Oct 10, 2003 12:13 pm

I voted for the first option . Some may say option one is a bit harsh or inconsiderate . But it's just as inconsiderate as someone knowingly cheating to beat someone who plays fairly , so there.

No cheaters = no mega-long threads/discussions about them .
Kick them all out , thats what I say.
Cheating.....it's just not cricket .

Cheers ,

AL
HAL: " It's puzzling . I've never seen anything quite like this before..? "

Buttermaker
MARP Seer
MARP Seer
Posts: 788
Joined: Sun May 19, 2002 9:06 am

Re: How to Handle Cheaters at MARP?

Post by Buttermaker » Fri Oct 10, 2003 12:16 pm

Weehawk wrote:I am interested in how the MARP community in general and the MARP editors as individuals feel about this issue.
I would like to hear from each editor what his stance on this issue is as well.

The election isn't too far away.

User avatar
QRS
Editor
Posts: 954
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2002 3:33 pm
Location: Sweden

Post by QRS » Fri Oct 10, 2003 12:27 pm

I have been thinking a lot about this lately. I have voted for the first option, but I think there should be a warning first. There can be cases were "person X" is innocent etc, but with one warning it is not so likely that the same thing will happen again if he/she is innocent. I will also stress that these actions shall only take place when we are 100% sure that "person X" is cheating. I mean no "word of mouth" thingie. I guess all of you agree on that :)

This is just my opinion in general and has nothing to do with any special case.

We are discussing this on the editors board right now too. I´ll hope that we can agree on some kind of action to satisfy the MARP comunity.
QRS

User avatar
Weehawk
MARPaholic
MARPaholic
Posts: 2546
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 7:43 am
Location: Devil's Canyon
Contact:

Post by Weehawk » Fri Oct 10, 2003 12:32 pm

Buttermaker wrote:I would like to hear from each editor what his stance on this issue is as well.
Definitely.

I would very much like to know which editor stands where on this matter.

And whichever way their convictions lie, I will respect them more standing up for them and sharing them with the membership than for avoiding the issue.
John Cunningham (JTC)
Image

User avatar
Weehawk
MARPaholic
MARPaholic
Posts: 2546
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 7:43 am
Location: Devil's Canyon
Contact:

Post by Weehawk » Fri Oct 10, 2003 12:39 pm

QRS wrote:I have been thinking a lot about this lately. I have voted for the first option, but I think there should be a warning first. There can be cases were "person X" is innocent etc, but with one warning it is not so likely that the same thing will happen again if he/she is innocent. I will also stress that these actions shall only take place when we are 100% sure that "person X" is cheating. I mean no "word of mouth" thingie. I guess all of you agree on that :)

This is just my opinion in general and has nothing to do with any special case.

We are discussing this on the editors board right now too. I´ll hope that we can agree on some kind of action to satisfy the MARP comunity.
Yes, I understand that I was being restrictive in only offering two options, and that every case will be slightly different.

Thanks for explaining your view and your vote.

I hope we hear from the other editors in their own words as well.
John Cunningham (JTC)
Image

User avatar
***PL***
Editor
Posts: 668
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2002 9:37 pm

Post by ***PL*** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 12:47 pm

I voted for #2 (delete the recordings), however this should be coupled with an email explaining why it was deleted. I know it pisses people off when all of a sudden some INPs disappear with no explanation. But, if a player has knowingly has cheated, it should be expected that the INPs will be deleted. A flagrant or repeated offense clearly means at minimum a WARNING! Continued breach of this policy is grounds for suspension.

The scope of deleted recordings should only be limited to those that are highly questionable or can be proved that cheating did in fact occur. Before doling out tough suspensions, you also need to be receptive to newcomers and in the case of seasoned MARPers, consider how long they've been with us.

LN2
MARPaholic
MARPaholic
Posts: 1669
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 4:46 pm
Contact:

Post by LN2 » Fri Oct 10, 2003 12:55 pm

I think only 2 choices isn't enough. I'm voting for just zeroing out those scores cuz I feel to do the banning and removing all scores is drastic enough where many things must occur beforehand...

1) You need absolute and deniable proof cheating has occurred not just once..but on a recurring basis..even AFTER the gamer has been notified and warned that continued cheating may result in their membership being revoked and all scores from them removed.

2) That the player understands the warning and exactly what is "cheating" about the gameplay for certain games. I think in many cases the player just doesn't understand it. This might be because of a language barrier or because as we are seeing more of at MARP and likely TG also, more and more of the new generation of gamers(13-20 year olds) are participating. This is a new generation of gamers that have been playing computer and console games that often allow for cheating with various cheat codes in the games. I think the MARP explanation of cheating perhaps needs more elaboration. Many as they have expressed here is whatever a game allows you to do is what should be allowed to do...so they don't view cheat codes as cheating even given their name. They view MAME as the game, not an emulator of game CPUs that then can play tons of arcade games.

3) Also what defines cheating in a game? If a game has a special rule and that rule isn't followed technically that could be called cheating...but more than likely is a case where the player never viewed the special rules or didn't understand what it was stating.

For an action as drastic as removal of all their scores and MARP membership to occur, it must be proven the player is intentionally cheating, not "accidentally" cheating. By accidental cheating I mean cheating at a game without realizing what you are doing isn't allowed.

I look at it if any inp displaying cheating is zeroed out, eventually that cheater will get the message and stop doing it...or just keep suffering the consequences of their inps being zeroed out or deleted.

Hmm, perhaps there are a few cases where they are doing it to actually have examples of cheating at MARP to then show others what not to do....or to stir up a discussion about it. I guess in these cases it would be best if the player acknowledges that in their description.

I also think for enforcement there could be more middle ground where after the warning(which would only occur after a few cheating offenses...not just 1 since 1 could be a total misunderstanding and misinterpretation) perhaps the next action is a 3 month ban from submitting any new scores or participating at the forum. Then they are active again which is their "last chance" type of thing.

evil_angela
Button Masher
Button Masher
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 12:03 pm
Contact:

Post by evil_angela » Fri Oct 10, 2003 1:11 pm

Being rather new here, I don't know how much of a problem cheating has actually been in the past - but I get the impression it's been a big issue. And I can see that as a serious problem, especially since MAME can make it rather easy at times.

I lean toward the first option, though with appropriate escalation levels. After all, an inp or two that appears to be the result of cheating, or making use of banned bugs is not an indication that the player is out to break the rules - or perhaps with a person that's on the edge of making cheating a habit, seeing the inp's zeroed out will be enough to stop them.

But a habitual cheater, even after being told to stop multiple times, well, eventually has all of their inp's tainted. If someone submits scores to a game a half-dozen times, and all of them are due to cheating, when they submit number 7 with a similar score, and it seems to be cheat free - who's going to believe they didn't just finally find a way to make it undetectable?

Sure, they can always make a new account and come back - and start over in the process. That's about the best that can be done, as there is no practical way to prevent that person from ever being able to sign up again.

To put it simply - option 2 to start off with, working up to option 1 if need be.

wuzel
MARP Knight
MARP Knight
Posts: 349
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2002 9:42 am
Location: Poland - Lodz
Contact:

Post by wuzel » Fri Oct 10, 2003 1:46 pm

have u seen the film from Counter strike tournament where a security throwing outside a "cheater" guy with all his stuff (whole pc)??? thats the spirit :) :)

4 me cheating is bad and lame :(
lets loose that kind of players - finding bugs in games or tricks is ql but playing with invureability or hidden autofire is 4 me not acceptable
proceudre: informing email, 1 day 2 make a statement at forum and off he goes
let he create another account - with the same recordings it would be throwing out day by day :)
It's good 2 be here with U guys :)

User avatar
QRS
Editor
Posts: 954
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2002 3:33 pm
Location: Sweden

Post by QRS » Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:03 pm

Take note that this has to do with cheating. Not using tricks or banned techs, leeching spots etc. in a game (Hisa has showed us a few examples of this) Those tricks etc must be discussed/allowed/not allowed etc.

Everyone can overlook a special rule or find a new trick that should not be allowed. Of course someone may breaking those rules too, but that is another issue. This issue is about pure cheating.

I just want to separate these things so that there will be no
missunderstanding here :)

Also consider that Weehawk stated this in his first post:
For purposes of this poll let's assume that we're past the question of whether the player cheated, and take it as given that it has been determined the he or she did.
So we don´t really have to discuss the proof etc as he means that things like that has already been proven when these actions should take place. I have to admit that I overlooked that myself in my earlier post. Sorry about that :)

Cheers!
QRS

Post Reply